[lvmypnt]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Sure, doing a flc under saddle is a bit different from doing it at liberty. That's why the rider's balance and timing is the most important thing beyond whether the horse is naturally geared towards doing it. Just because a horse CAN do a flc in week 1 doesn't mean he's going to be drilled for it, or ridden into the ground. Some people believe that the more you can introduce (introduce!!) early on, the less of a big deal it is down the road. Some h/j trainers I know who do see how willingly the horse will do a flc u/s in the first week or two will also take that same horse over a couple of little crossrails. No. Big. Deal. For *some* horses.

Some trainers think that waiting a year to canter a greenie is good. Some think it's asking for trouble. Neither are right, neither is wrong. It works *for them*. One trainer I know who starts TBs mostly has them w/t/c the first day under saddle. NBD. THEY feel that asking the fresh greenie to canter towards the end of Ride 1, when they are a little tired, causes them to think more about their self preservation (ie staying upright on 4 feet) and less about potentially throwing in a buck here or there. It works for them. Would scare the pee out of me

John Lyons says in one of his early books that while a greenie is in the stage of everything being new, that is a great time, for many horses, to keep introducing new things. They're in the mode of "oh, new thing, oh, new thing, oh, new thing", and for them, that's just how it is - that's life with a human. NBD

Maybe there is some confusion on my part. In my posts I have been talking about 2 year olds and FLC's. I agree with what you are saying if it is in regards to an older green horse. They are more mature both physically and mentally.

The problem I guess I am having is pertaining to the young (2 year old) horses with one week of training being asked to perform flying lead changes. How can they possibly be conditioned (physically and mentally) enough to do what is being asked of them?

I stated earlier that some horses can handle it, but IMO the majority of the horses can not at such a young age cannot handle that kind of pressure during the first week of training.

[Bruce Wiley]

Right before the change, they lighten their frontend, they shift the force of impulsion & a delay occur, giving miro seconds for the front & rear legs to change into the new side.
As young horses, many of them will do this over & over again.
They have discovered, its more comfortable to lighten & drive up as a way of maintaining their balance from the old to the new way of motion.
Yes a horse without a rider could be seen doing lead changes on it own.
The problem comes into play... US, our weight & cue.
Mistakes with us can occur, where the horse could suffer the jolting, jamming of their landing leg where a injury could take place.

Many trainers like myself will want to find out if a horse in for training has this sense, and talent right along with our weight, cue and if the horse is able to pick up what our shifting weight & cues means. This doesn't mean it has to be taught at that time. But it give us the idea,this horse knows, understands to use it's assets of awareness, talents.
Some horses aren't bless with this awareness of their movement therefore stumbles, even falls, which I would say, could be a sign the horse isn't ready.
I wouldn't focus so much on the changes of leads. The best thing is to be certain the horse is prepare, very fit & you're skill enough to provide the proper guidance.
The horse needs to be able to do other challenges, tasks before venturing into this manuver.
Us humans, as babies weren't able to run, jump hurdles, but in time this may develop thru a steady process.

I hope this helps.

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by lvmypnt

Maybe there is some confusion on my part. In my posts I have been talking about 2 year olds and FLC's. I agree with what you are saying if it is in regards to an older green horse. They are more mature both physically and mentally.

The problem I guess I am having is pertaining to the young (2 year old) horses with one week of training being asked to perform flying lead changes. How can they possibly be conditioned (physically and mentally) enough to do what is being asked of them?

I stated earlier that some horses can handle it, but IMO the majority of the horses can not at such a young age cannot handle that kind of pressure during the first week of training.

This is my problem as well.

But I think JBRio is talking about a real "basic" introduction....like kindergardens ABC kind of start....not the actual teaching of the mechanics of reading sort of analegy..... needed when beginning the actual process of flying changes so the horse has some "clue" to what the cue/aids are when the actual education of schooling flying changes begins.

With the base of balance and rider shifting weight in the natural change already started, the horse should be able to understand, execute and finese the aids of the flying change while performing the move easier when he is older and better educated....say...grade four or five.

I do not disagree with this theory but am veeeerrry selective on the "type" of horse I do this with and their age/growth rate/mental acceptance

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by farmeress

This is my problem as well.

But I think JBRio is talking about a real "basic" introduction....like kindergardens ABC kind of start....not the actual teaching of the mechanics of reading sort of analegy..... needed when beginning the actual process of flying changes so the horse has some "clue" to what the cue/aids are when the actual education of schooling flying changes begins.

With the base of balance and rider shifting weight in the natural change already started, the horse should be able to understand, execute and finese the aids of the flying change while performing the move easier when he is older and better educated....say...grade four or five.

I do not disagree with this theory but am veeeerrry selective on the "type" of horse I do this with and their age/growth rate/mental acceptance

Yes, exactly, exactly. You wouldn't take a greenie of any age, under saddle for a week, who can't trot without falling on his face, or who travels sideways, and "just see" if he can do a FLC. You judge what the horse is like and if he seems to be the quiet type who is naturally balanced and aware of a connection between his back and and front end (some aren't!) and you are a balanced rider, no harm, often lots of good, in just seeing if the horse can change. If he can, great! Toss them in here and there as training progresses, not even really schooling them. If he can't, NBD, that isn't the time to start specific flc training - there's obviously work to do.