[JBandRio]

Some trainers DO teach flying changes right off the bat, in the first couple of weeks. But, they have the skill and finesse and they have a horse who doesn't have an balance-baggage to deal with. I have a friend in Upstate NY who gets a lot of trackies straight from good trainers. She brings them home, starts their new life which includes w/t/c (usually in an indoor as most of hers come from tracks at the end of the season) and right away, with the balanced ones, they're doing flc's for her effortlessly.

The HORSE is the big key. If he has anxiety issues, or some balance issues, straightness issues, then no, you aren't going to be working on flc's in the first week.

Just because Clinton Anderson doesn't do it doesn't mean he's right and John is wrong.

[Circle C]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Just because Clinton Anderson doesn't do it doesn't mean he's right and John is wrong.

I dont recall stating whether it was right or wrong

[JBandRio]

It seemed to be implied that doing them was wrong since you said "CA is as professional as they come and I don't see him doing them."

Why are people so incredulous that they exist? Horses do them all by themselves in the field, even when they are "unbalanced" because they are motorcycling around a corner. The benfit of a super green horse is that they ARE very sensitive to weight shifts, so *as long as* the rider is properly balanced, and shifts his weight appropriately, and the horse has a reason to change (ie more likely to be a reason if you're coming across the diagonal and the horse visually sees he's going to go the other way, as opposed to just cantering a straight line), that can be all it takes.

Are they a truly collected flc? No. Are they correct? Likely (back to front).

[Cami1230]

Originally Posted by Rising Star

Ive had my OTTB a year and a half and I still dont push him to get them. Hes currently 7 and has had many other owners so we arent too sure what he had all learned so I restarted him over with the basic w/t/c slowly. He gets really confused when you ask for a FLC but gets his simples perfectly. Meanwhile I can jump a course with him and he will do them on his own each time. Same with polebending (we did it at a funshow)

Personally I think your rushing things a bit too fast with your mare. When training young horses you have to take it really slow or they can get confused and upset like yours is. Giving her some time off and then restarting her will be really good.

and i quick note to the hunter thing.. I really hope you havent started her over rails. horses shouldnt be started over fences till they are atleast 4 normally.

I may not know too much on FLC but I'm not ignorant

[Buckshot]

If you're positive it's not a pain issue, I'd back off a little on this for now.

I didn't read through the whole thread, so bear with me if this has already been answered: Does she do simple lead changes consistently well?

I'd say really get those simple changes down and then start working on flying changes but don't push the issue too hard or she may get really frustrated, like it seems she is now.

[AMD]

i agree, i would LOVE to see a CORRECT flying lead change after a week under saddle... heck, even after a month or 2..... pretty sure it does not exist.
and IMPO, even thinking that is SERIOUSLY rushing a horse.

\

Not all the time. I agree its RARE to find a horse that can do such a thing, but it does exist. A FLC is natural to a horse, a simple chance is not. Humans make it much harder than it needs to be (including myself.. lol). But, If you get a horse that is naturally talented and balanced, a FLC is simple to them. I've had a few that after 30-60 days can do FLCs clean and properly. They aren't ready to go show WR, but its definitely there.

Now a week undersaddle - I'm sure some do can it. I know lots of trainers that think if you w/t/c on their first or second ride its much less stressful for them and it sinks in a little better than much slower training. A lot of these trainers are very successful and just because I don't use their methods, certainely doesn't make it wrong.

I do believe the OP's horse is telling her she isn't ready just by the things she has posted. The horse doesn't sound ready and probably needs some time off overall just to be a baby JMO though.

[farmeress]

I can understand a horse doing a change of leads in the frst week under saddle..... not because it has been trained too...because it did it naturally from balance or a weight shift of the rider affecting the balance.

They do it in the field naturally without the hinderance of a human effecting their balance.

But to convince me that in a week of being under saddle with training, a horse has learned the correct cues to do changes leads off the riders' leg/back/seat aids???.....I too would need to see ALL the training videos to beleive it could be done without compromisimng a young horses' mental/physical being.

Simply because a young horse does have balance, does not mean they are mentally or physically ready for this type of education.

A video could be enough to change my perspective, though.

[Cami1230]

I'm gonna give her some riding time off. Just gonna do ground work and take it from there. Thanks for all your responses!

[lvmypnt]

Originally Posted by AMD

I've had a few that after 30-60 days can do FLCs clean and properly. They aren't ready to go show WR, but its definitely there.

I have also seen horses after 30-60 days be able to perform FLC's (i dont agree with it but too each his own) very well, not perfect, but well. However after a week? I am not even sure you could teach a horse to read the cues consistantly within a week.

Yes, they do it naturally when at play, but there is no thought put in to them doing it at that time. So to add tack, a rider, balance, collection and the thought process into a week of training and then asking them for a FLC is IMHO much different then them doing it at play.

No wonder there are so many horses with "blown" minds and 3 legged lame by the time they are 5.

[JBandRio]

Sure, doing a flc under saddle is a bit different from doing it at liberty. That's why the rider's balance and timing is the most important thing beyond whether the horse is naturally geared towards doing it. Just because a horse CAN do a flc in week 1 doesn't mean he's going to be drilled for it, or ridden into the ground. Some people believe that the more you can introduce (introduce!!) early on, the less of a big deal it is down the road. Some h/j trainers I know who do see how willingly the horse will do a flc u/s in the first week or two will also take that same horse over a couple of little crossrails. No. Big. Deal. For *some* horses.

Some trainers think that waiting a year to canter a greenie is good. Some think it's asking for trouble. Neither are right, neither is wrong. It works *for them*. One trainer I know who starts TBs mostly has them w/t/c the first day under saddle. NBD. THEY feel that asking the fresh greenie to canter towards the end of Ride 1, when they are a little tired, causes them to think more about their self preservation (ie staying upright on 4 feet) and less about potentially throwing in a buck here or there. It works for them. Would scare the pee out of me

John Lyons says in one of his early books that while a greenie is in the stage of everything being new, that is a great time, for many horses, to keep introducing new things. They're in the mode of "oh, new thing, oh, new thing, oh, new thing", and for them, that's just how it is - that's life with a human. NBD