[NotFadeAway]

I like eventing and I respect the sport. But I really believe it is just to dangerous to gallop fences that don't come down. Sorry, thats ASKING for trouble. There is already the risk of hanging a foot on poled jumps. When you gallop a fence horses jump it flatter more risk of hitting it.

There are LOTS of ways to make fences look solid when they really arent. I've thought of several.

[littlecelticpony]

Short format. We're asking our horses to blast around at extreme speed, then crank in and compress for big technical questions, then blast out at extreme speed, etc etc.

And I agree with Wofford - kids these days don't understand the "5th wheel" concept, and therefore their horses lack it.

Those of us that fought valiantly to keep long format are shaking our heads in sadness, these days.

[pippy]

I think that there are many and varied questions and answers to the current problems we are seeing in Eventing and XC in particular. And it will take trail and error to come up with a suitable answer to overcome the problems and many accidents happening of late that can be rolled out over the world to become a practice for all eventers to follow.

I haven't read the article at this point as i don't have enough time to fully comprehend it.
My thoughts at this time though
- i agree on the speed and times as well as the suggested circling rule, although the circling rule does pose some challenges to make it robust and if i start thinking about the issues around it i will blurb on forever on the yays and nays of it.
Speed though is a very big factor in accidents. I've recently overheard some friends talking about speed and a very "rider scary" jump. One of these friend has been told in the past that she needs to ride at one of these scary jumps faster, the notion being that as long as she is going fast enough the horse won't be able to stop himself and jump it anyway.. does that not scare everyone!!! I then witnessed her jump said jump in this notion and while it worked in the process I also saw the horse knock his forelegs, the rider lose her stirrups and gallop away from the jump still hanging on the the horses neck. I'm not sure the instructor meant this as such as she is the same instructor as mine, i think for the inexperinced that forwardness into a jump is confused with speed, this same jump i was instructed to be jumped with my horse well underneath me but he must be forward into it, not the flat line that this other rider rode it with.

Another thought of mine and that has been repeated by others that i've talked this issue over with is the qualification of riders/horses wanting to move up the grades, whether its from training to novice or 2* to 4* international courses. Should the horses not have had suffucient runs at lower grades and not be moved up just because the rider has riden at that level and knows the horse can cope with the height. A horse cannot go from Novice to 3* in 6months in my opinion no matter how good the rider, i feel that some system must come in that proves the horse and rider has had sufficient runs at each level before moving up. This is very broad and doesn't address the whole of the system but a basis of my idea.

As many other has said - this needs to be addressed and soon before fatalaties become a accpeted fact of the sport. Accidents happen yes - but we can and should do everything in our power to reduce the risk of accidents occuring.

And i don't think we can remove the solid fences - if we do that we may as well call it showjumping while galloping or something dumb like that, the solid fences are what make eventing the sport it is and to remove would remove the essence behind it all.

[tbtrainer]

I dont see a problem with frangible pins... I would rather see a jump collapse, than a horse....

[NotFadeAway]

whats the difference between long format and short format

[horseguy]

Originally Posted by tbtrainer

I dont see a problem with frangible pins... I would rather see a jump collapse, than a horse....

The problem is in what they do not do. They do not deal with banks and ditches, which may be impossible to make frangible or safer through engineering.

For example, at the Athens Olympics a German rider came too fast to an Italian Bank with a ditch on the other side. The horse was off stride, fell at the ditch and had to be destroyed. So, even if you make some jumps safer by engineering you cannot make all jumps safer and that presents a standards problem. A rider needs to be able to ride the entire course safely. We cannot send riders of on a course saying, "The timber jumps will fall down, but the banks and ditches will kill you."

So the answer, I believe, is not in the jumps but in the riding. Riders must qualify to ride courses and they must also prove that if they qualify they have the sense and discipline to ride safely. I'm for giving all fence judges whistles to blow when a rider is dangerous and then send them off the course with a red card like in soccer. I am also for encouraging better judgment by crediting back part of the time a rider takes to circle before a jump, and allowing circles closer to a jump without calling them a refusal. This will cause riders to be more willing to set a horse up for success rather than failure at a jump. Riders are rushing and taking unnecessary chances. It is not a matter of speed. Steeple chase is 800 meter per minute. It's about judgment and as JW says, it's about getting back to horses contributing more to the processes and not being such robots like dressage horses.

The first name for eventing, before Combined Training, was "The Military". It was for soldiers who rode war horses. These horses were called "Chargers". We need more chargers, and riders who can ride them sensibly. Frangible jumps take the sport in the opposite direction. There is a reason why stadium jumps fall down when struck and cross country jumps do not. If you remove that distinction, then the competition of "The Military" is dead.

[JKetsche]

I think frangible pins are wonderful. They don't change the look of a fence or how it's ridden, but they do make it safer. I don't think about which jumps do or don't have pins when I'm riding a course--I treat them all as solid. The horse certainly doesn't know about things like that. I'm all for tradition, but if we have the technology to make the sport safer without impacting how it's ridden, we should LEAP at the chance.

I do like the idea of yellow/red carding riders. I don't know about giving jump judges the full power to red card someone for a future comp, but maybe giving them the power to pull out a rider from the current comp . . . and yellow carding might be helpful. At the recent show I saw the TD check in with jump judges about watching rider #X because that rider looked shaky in warm-up. On couse it was obvious they were not having a good day--the run looked choppy and uncomfortable (though hardly alarming). They actually made it around clear (though I think with time). Having a watch list system would allow organizers to say "last show this person looked weak--we should watch them closely" and to make a call about whether the person really is overfaced or was just having a bad day last time. Maybe pulling up can earn you positive points, too. There was a girl who 3 weeks earlier had looked pretty good at Training level. She was in the warm-up with me this past weekend and her horse was stopping (even dumped her once), not jumping well, etc. She scratched before even getting out on course because she recognized that it wasn't her day. That should be rewarded just as much as a rough round should be penalized.

By the way, are you sure it was a German horse? For some reason I'm thinking it was Austrian . . . I could be wrong.

[Buckshot]

I think that the vet box should definitely be brought back...

Also, while I'm not super familiar with the sport of eventing, are the courses exceeding the level of the riders/horses? It seems like through the years, the courses through the same level have gotten more challenging and higher...but then maybe the horses/riders have advanced in that one level too.

Regardless, an interesting read.

[horseguy]

Originally Posted by JKetsche

I do like the idea of yellow/red carding riders. I don't know about giving jump judges the full power to red card someone for a future comp, but maybe giving them the power to pull out a rider from the current comp . .... are you sure it was a German horse? For some reason I'm thinking it was Austrian . . . I could be wrong.

I think you are correct, Austrian. I think a red card for the day's competition by a local WELL TRAINED certified jump judge is sufficient. The US Polo Association has a good system. The umpires are certified in a school and game tested. They have a lot of digression at the games they officiate, and there is a regional governor for ongoing problems, and there is a national level pf consideration too. Eventing is going to have to pay jump judges as they do in polo and every other sports.

[JKetsche]

I would find it okay by certified jump judges, but given the difficulty in finding enough jump judges when anyone can do it makes it unlikely that jump judges will be certified. Maybe having an option for jump judge certification will allow for organizers to space certified judges out around a course. Those judges could be certified to red-flag riders, and ideally they would spread out to cover both the combinations (water, banks, coffins, etc.) and the fly fences (which can be very telling about XC skills) with the untrained volunteers in between. The question becomes how to finance and implement that idea.