[stephanie]

I think it would be awesome. In fact if they do it, I probably will go. (I would love to go anyway actually, it's one of the events that I want to go to). It will just depend on whether Mica is ready or not.

[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by I Love BODIE!

I think it would be fun, but, like Becca said, not sure how it would work out with so many beginners. The T3DE has almost same qualifications required as for moving up to Prelim, right? Something like 4 clean XCs and a few requirements for SJ and DR.

The problem with a N3DE is that there is no requirement for moving up to Training, and I don't know how popular it would be to have requirements for the N3DE. On the other hand, I personally would WANT requirements for any 3DE, just to make sure riders/horses aren't being over-faced with the new challenges in the long-format events.

If I had a horse and the time, I'd love to participate. However, I cannot see allowing people to do a N3DE without having qualifications.

I would think that there would have to be qualifications for a N3DE, it would not be in the organizers interest to allow anyone to show up and try their hand at a long format event if they've never ridden cross-country before. However, GMHA has thrown qualifications out the window in the interest of getting entries up for the T3DE. Last year, there were several riders that technically hadn't qualified, luckily, everyone made it around safely and it wasn't an issue.

[rosewood]

I would personally LOVE IT, but I feel Training Level is a good place for it to be. Novice for me...I'm still working on consistancy and getting over all the jumps. LOL adding in all the phases would be a huge stressor for me. Would it be interesting...YOU BET...would I do it someday? I don't know. I would go watch, but I think I would rather do it at Training Level to be honest. I just need more time go around courses and getting used to typical events before I throw that in there. Plus inexperienced riders can still sneak into Novice that aren't necessarily ready. Just my opinion from the little experience I have.

[imjustjoking22]

I think it's a great idea, the lower fences would be a good way for more experienced riders to enter the long format as an initial step down from novice.

At events I have seen a lot of dodgy beginner novice rounds for cross country, but the majority of the novice riders always seem to really have their acts together.

And I don't see why the longer distance would be a problem for horses who are ridden consistently- heck, if my horse can do a 3 hr foxhunt without any extraordinary measures taken in conditioning, then the longer format doesn't seem that extreme in comparison.

I do agree that there should be qualifications.

[pippy]

Sorry - but I'm just going to throw this out thre - and bash me down if you want.

Why the heck not - god its not like the horses are running at 450mpm, if they aren't that fit they will cope - whats the speed for that level 300mpm? 250mpm? god some horses can trot that fast.
And really - Novice - technical courses - nah not really, its simple basic courses with not a lot to them. RT and steeple chase, not technical at all, its a blast - let them at it without qualifications - maybe thats because we have absolutly no qualification system here until you get to 1* level that I think that - and well everyone here copes fine - so I really don't see the issue of horse fitness/unexperienced riders on a xc - it happens here all the time and they are fine because it is just a straight foward basic course its not to you get higher (training) that the technical fences come in!

Honestly some things I read here - just gob smack me with how PC the american horse world is.... its supposed to be fun, not a ******** boot camp on safety for horse and rider, the event co-ordinators ensure that they do their most to make a safe course at the level jumped, and then it is rider responisbility to make sure their horse can do it - you have a system that riders can be pulled up on course - make more use of that and you'll start seeing people educating themselves after being pulled up for a puffing/tired horse/jumping to fast etc.

We cope fine - riders that are unsafe* get pulled up, and then its gossiped about for weeks - and you can darn well be sure that the same rider at the next event won't make that mistake twice with the gossip mongers having a feild day after the last event!


*unsafe also refering to doing all phases with unfit horse, tired, lame, not jumping in a safe style etc etc etc - essentialy a rider/horse combo that makes you gasp every time they jump.

[I Love BODIE!]

Originally Posted by pippy

Why the heck not - god its not like the horses are running at 450mpm, if they aren't that fit they will cope - whats the speed for that level 300mpm? 250mpm? god some horses can trot that fast.

I don't have time to reply now, but just thought I'd let you know - Novice courses are 400mpm

[pippy]

Originally Posted by I Love BODIE!

I don't have time to reply now, but just thought I'd let you know - Novice courses are 400mpm

I thought I was a bit out - so i went and looked up the rules 350-400mpm - still not hoofing IMO.

Max course length of ?? couldn't find that information, but ours here for same height is 2300m

[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by pippy

Sorry - but I'm just going to throw this out thre - and bash me down if you want.

Why the heck not - god its not like the horses are running at 450mpm, if they aren't that fit they will cope - whats the speed for that level 300mpm? 250mpm? god some horses can trot that fast.
And really - Novice - technical courses - nah not really, its simple basic courses with not a lot to them. RT and steeple chase, not technical at all, its a blast - let them at it without qualifications - maybe thats because we have absolutly no qualification system here until you get to 1* level that I think that - and well everyone here copes fine - so I really don't see the issue of horse fitness/unexperienced riders on a xc - it happens here all the time and they are fine because it is just a straight foward basic course its not to you get higher (training) that the technical fences come in!

Honestly some things I read here - just gob smack me with how PC the american horse world is.... its supposed to be fun, not a ******** boot camp on safety for horse and rider, the event co-ordinators ensure that they do their most to make a safe course at the level jumped, and then it is rider responisbility to make sure their horse can do it - you have a system that riders can be pulled up on course - make more use of that and you'll start seeing people educating themselves after being pulled up for a puffing/tired horse/jumping to fast etc.

We cope fine - riders that are unsafe* get pulled up, and then its gossiped about for weeks - and you can darn well be sure that the same rider at the next event won't make that mistake twice with the gossip mongers having a feild day after the last event!


*unsafe also refering to doing all phases with unfit horse, tired, lame, not jumping in a safe style etc etc etc - essentialy a rider/horse combo that makes you gasp every time they jump.

I agree with what you are saying, to an extent.

Novice speed in the states is between 350-400mpm. Not fast at all, definitely, but not a trot, certainly. A steeplechase phase might be 450mpm, as the T3DE runs steeplechase at 500mpm.

A typical Novice course should be very straightforward, gallopy, single fences, maybe a turning question here and there, one or two AB related distances. A ditch, some water, nothing fancy. However, it's been the trend of late to make Novice more and more technical. Just as more technical questions from Prelim have trickled down to Training, it has begun to reach Novice...there are courses out there with baby corners, skinnies, and coffins (there was even a half coffin at BN for AECs).

Am I saying this is a bad thing? Not necessarily. I can understand that there are some lifetime Novice riders out there that want a challenge. Novice is less and less of a stepping block and more and more a be all and end all. My feeling is that if I'm wanting to ride corners, skinnies and coffins, I ought to be able to handle the jump from Novice to Training. That's a personal feeling though. I'd rather Novice be like you said, simple, galloping, straightforward. It should be where you learn how to run and jump, and that's about it.

Everyone who has said that it wouldn't take much to get a horse fit for a N3DE is right, it wouldn't. So then what's the point? To say you did it? To me, the entire point of a long format three day is to test your ability as a horseman. Even at Training, there is a certain amount of conditioning and preparation involved, and for most horses and riders that haven't gone above a Prelim horse trials, it will be the greatest test of fitness you've encountered. The real education begins when you get off after Phase D and wait for the vet to clear you, all the way up to when you ride your stadium course the next day, and you feel what sort of energy your horse has left.

At Training, it's certainly not as intense as it was at the **** level, but it's not a walk in the park. You won't see horses on fluids, and probably no one will get spun at the jog the next day, but cooling out, walking, icing, wrapping, etc, still need to be done. My point is that at Novice, this sort of preparation becomes even less necessary, and the entire educational piece is out the window.

If you want to go out and gallop around and jump 3' steeplechase fences, go for it, but for $500 just in entries, I'd pass.

I'm not meaning to be PC here, I'm saying I fundamentaly don't see the point in doing a long format event at Novice for the above reasons. If people want to do it, great, I won't stop them.

[pippy]

Originally Posted by Rummymuffin

A typical Novice course should be very straightforward, gallopy, single fences, maybe a turning question here and there, one or two AB related distances. A ditch, some water, nothing fancy. However, it's been the trend of late to make Novice more and more technical. Just as more technical questions from Prelim have trickled down to Training, it has begun to reach Novice...there are courses out there with baby corners, skinnies, and coffins (there was even a half coffin at BN for AECs).

I agree with your post completly - in regards to it as a learning experience, and you quite right, the man power needed, the money involved in running might just not be plausible on its own for the experience gain by the riders - but if they are already running a training its not that much extra man power needed to run the novice - I can see why they are thinking about it....


As for the above - we have those fences in our training and novice, even BN - but maybe one one or 2 of them in a course. Depending on the area of the country you are in, and they are well below max. I.e a half coffin at my local grounds is set at 3 strides and a 80cm jump(sorry hard to convert for my math challenged brain) there is also a down bank, 3 stride, up bank 3 stride, jump. A pallisade with ditch, and trac.... a bounce, a corner thats 5 strides off a log (log not always included in course). So reasonably technical - but low enough and straight foward enough that it should pose not much problem to the horse, only as "rider fences".
Jump next level - hieght set at max, and less strides is the trend.

Go north of me - way less techical - my last prelim the most technical thing was up bank 2 strides to skinny, and a corner that wasn't a corner but more a skinny, and there is little width to the jumps
Go south a few events before that - I had everything imaginable thrown at me, with skiniies offset, coffins, bounce into water, bounce bounce up stairs, 2 corners at 2 strides, etc etc - all set at max height/width.

[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by pippy

I agree with your post completly - in regards to it as a learning experience, and you quite right, the man power needed, the money involved in running might just not be plausible on its own for the experience gain by the riders - but if they are already running a training its not that much extra man power needed to run the novice - I can see why they are thinking about it....

I think the big reason why the T3DE at GMHA has struggled is because they try to run it completely on its own. Almost every other I've heard of does it in conjunction with a recognized horse trials. Because of space issues and scheduling, they chose to run it as a stand alone, and the entries have dropped to the point where they can't make it break even. I agree that adding a novice would be the best way to boost entries and not run out of space/manpower.

I honestly don't know how many people will actually sign up for a N3DE once they see the price tag. It was hard to swallow the expenses for the T3DE, and it was a goal I've had for a long time, before I even bought Bouncer. For something that is meant to be educational and is a sort of special event for the area, I wish organizers would get creative and find someone to sponsor all of the stabling or something, so that costs might get somewhere in the realm of reasonable.