[xduckehx]

Vinny engages great, and tracks up accordingly when we're moving out at all 4 gaits (counting gallop in there), but as soon as I ask him to collect at the trot, he lags. He doesn't track up, and the more I push in order to get the engaging, the less it is "collection" lol.

Do I just need to continue working on forward before focusing on collection?

Should I add some ground poles to help with engaging?

Any Ideas?

[pippy]

How are you asking for this collection at the trot, and for how long? Normally a horse looses impulsion and engagement at collected paces because the rider forgets to or doesn't use enough leg. A horse who is learning to collect normaly takes A LOT of leg and very small but often half halts, or a "fixed" but soft hand. And they won't maintain it for long at all because it is such hard work.

[xduckehx]

Generally I only ask for anything for a few strides when I'm introducing something new, just enough for him to do it, and to get praise and let him relax/stretch out/down again. He loses his impulsion completely, and his stride turns very un-connected (not strung out, but he's just not tracking up at all). When I ask, I make sure we are going forward at a working trot to begin with, hold with the hand and do a firm half halt with the seat, while using pressure with the calves, or slight lift of my inside spur if I'm wearing any at all, just to make it clear I still want forward, and for him to be engaged. He will usually get it for a stride, but then drop completely, where then we are having to start from the top. Which isn't horrible, I'm just wondering if there is another way to go about this.

At this point is it just repitition or can/should I change something?

Or should I continue to focus on the forward?

Hes only 4, so I'm not in any rush lol, He's just doing very well and I'd like to see what our options are.. or what the next step can be

[farmeress]

I know I sound like a broken record with this.....but TIMING of the aid is paramount.

For example, if you use a half halt when the horses' hoof is in the air instead of on the ground, this will encourage the horse to halt the forward "energy" motion of the hoof and place it down sooner instead of tracking up.

If the rider is tensing through the thighs instead of using the seatbone/pelvic bone/core muscles/legs and back to collect the horse, they will find the horse stifles his movement as the tight thigh is an incorrect collection aid.

Collection is more from the back/seat/core/calf aids then the thigh/hands/half halt.

Collection can taught through shoulder in, lateral work, travers, renvers, half or full volte, on the straight or on a circle.

Remember that there is also a tempo change in collection though the rythym may stay the same.

Collection is developed over time as strength is increased through correct training and appropriate schooling exercises which has the horse more confident and comfortable carrying the weight in the hindend making true collection effortless for the horse allowing the self-carraige in the trot

[Bratmare]

*Quarter Horse Style*

Sitting and driving with your leg and seat plus when it feels like he starts to lag I would stop and back. In driving up he needs to lift his shoulders and rock back, hence the reason I say that backing is useful and depending on how well trained your horse is you could pivot (on the hindquarters) and go in another direction which will encourage him to lift his shoulders and move his feet but remain on his butt.

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by Bratmare

*Quarter Horse Style*

Sitting and driving with your leg and seat plus when it feels like he starts to lag I would stop and back. In driving up he needs to lift his shoulders and rock back, hence the reason I say that backing is useful and depending on how well trained your horse is you could pivot (on the hindquarters) and go in another direction which will encourage him to lift his shoulders and move his feet but remain on his butt.

You and I are on the same page

Same stuff...different articulation....though I did forget the rein back, which Dressage also uses as a collection exercise as well

[xduckehx]

Thanks ladies for your input!

That is one of our big main points during work.. I try to devote atleast 10 or 15 minutes everytime we work to halt, back, step forward (it's more fluid than it sounds lol.. whether the halt comes from the walk, trot or canter, we immediately back up a few steps and then move ahead directly into a forward working trot). We've also been doing lots of shoulder-ins and slowly he's getting better and better at both the transitions and shoulder-ins.

Bratmare; I never thought to halt and back up though when he DOES start to lag, I'm going to try that and see how it does.

Also, how long is just long enough to work on collection without over doing it, but long enough for him to gain strength in this area?

eta: Farmeress; honestly I have never thought of the timing as per-hoof placement and timing.. I'm going to try that as well!

[Bratmare]

I can usually feel when my horse is getting 'weak'. He gets a little physically shaky when he working the manuver (sp?) and just cant 'hold' it to what he was doin earlier in the workout. I think, though, that the amount of work depends on the horse. My gelding will give his all and be overworking himself, where as my mare will 'quit' before she gets too tired. So I always have to watch that my gelding doesn't overdo it and that my mare pushes herself more. Sorry, I don't know what your horse is like.

[Blaiz889]

Getting collection is difficult. The articles on this web page are extremely helpful:
http://www.artofriding.com/school.html
I would recommend you read; all of the Classical Seat Series, On the Bit, and (just for extra knowledge) the Training Scale articles.
Once you have an understanding of the concepts talked about in the articles and can apply them in everyday riding, work on getting your horse to become round and impulsive. Remember he's young so don't stress him mentally or physical. It takes years to get a good dressage horse.
On to collection. Ride so that he is moving forward with impulsion, submission, and energy. When you reach the corner before the short side, half halt to get him paying attention to you. If you are posting use a very little outside rein and press you knees and thighs into the saddle, release after a short second and give a squeeze.
Remember to bend him through the corner as well.
As he straightens out onto the short side (by A or C) sit deeper into the saddle and half halt again only using your seat and legs. Give a stronger squeeze and maintain a strong, but light, connection with his mouth.
I'm not an expert, but you could probably find a good article on line if you Google search it.