[doublebarr]

In the Clone thread, I mention about how the rule change in ET registration in QH's had made the numbers jump greatly. Sandra asked me for more information on what I was saying. Just today, after working with AQHA and having to go back to archives for the information Melynda in Records sent me the information that she dug up. Here it is. The rule change (to all registration of multiple ET foals out of the same mare) went into effect in 2002. Take a look at the number of ET foals registered in 2001 compared to 2002. It is a 100% increase. Granted, it does not differenciate (spl?) between singles and multiples, but the increase of 100% points to a jump in multiple registrations. That, to me, is a very marked increase. And, it jumped from a tad over 1000 in 2002 to over 3000 in 2005. In previous years, it only increased by about 100, now it is increasing by 1000 each year.

Cindy, I apologize this has taken so long in getting to you. Here is a report of the number of embryo transfer foals registered, compared to the total number of horses registered by AQHA going back to 1980. At this time, AQHA does not have available a break down of how many of the embryo transfer foals are multiple foals registered to the same mare in the same year, just a total.

I trust you will contact me with any questions or if I may be of assistance to you in any other manner.

Embryo Transfer Statistics
............Year ...........Number of ET Foals ...............Number of Registrations Completed*

.............1980............................ 0................................................. 137,090
.............1981............................ 1 .................................................1 48,785
.............1982............................ 3 .................................................1 55,401
.............1983............................ 2 .................................................1 68,346
.............1984......................... .20 .................................................1 69,675
.............1985 ..........................32...................... ........................... 157,360
.............1986 ..........................98 .................................................1 53,773
.............1987........................ 133............................................... .. 147,007
.............1988 ........................144 .................................................1 28,352
.............1989........................ 111............................................... ...123,294
.............1990.......................... 82 .................................................1 10,579
.............1991 .......................134 .................................................. 101,394
.............1992....................... 151............................................... ....102,794
.............1993 .......................143 .................................................. 104,876
.............1994........................144...... ............................................ 105,017
.............1995....................... 189 .................................................. 107,332
.............1996....................... 265 .................................................. 108,604
.............1997........................341...... ............................................ 110,714
.............1998 .......................453 .................................................. 125,308
.............1999....................... 467............................................... ... 135,528
.............2000....................... 550............................................... ... 145,936
.............2001....................... 592............................................... ... 150,956
.............2002** .................1,007............................ ...................... 156,199
.............2003 ....................1,651......................... ......................... 160,980
.............2004.................... 1,932............................................. ......164,444
.............2005.................... 3,107............................................. ..... 165,057

*Total number of registrations includes the embryo transfer registrations


**2002 embryo transfer rule changed to allow for the
registration of multiple foals to a mare in any given year

(Boy I hope it worked that time. How come it's so hard to copy and paste a table from an e-mail into the forums?)

[doublebarr]

Also, just because I was currious for "Facts" rather than just my general knowledge, I did a search on a QH sire, Smart Little Lena, for his Get of Sire Detail report for one year. Picked 2004 just because this is when I started hearing about this in earnest after the rule change had gone into effect. Now I'm going to just type some stuff out, but if you would like me to, I can e-mail the official AQHA Get of Sire report that this information comes from to anyone who asks.

These are the mares and the number of ET foals they had born and registered for the 2004 year that were sired by Smart Little Lena.

Bunnys Starlight 2527600 had 3 foals registered

SPL Altisimo 3069406 had 2 foals registered

Rappatap 3805902 had 2 foals registered

Miss Royal Merada 2718707 had 2 foals registered

Quejanamia 2527133 had 4 foals registered

Little Tincie 3417055 had 2 foals

Poco Smokum Oak 2622377 had 2 foals

Justaswinging Peanut 3128832 had 2 foals

So by my count, thats 8 mares that were bred more than once for ET foals to the same stallion. Not a good trend. And one mare had 4 ET foals registered for this one year out of the same stallion!

[Chester]

That is a huge increase, specially when the horses seem to be worth very little when they hit the sales rings.

Is there a way to get some intelligence transfer in humans?

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by chester

Is there a way to get some intelligence transfer in humans?

Yep, I've managed to achieve that, too. It's done this way, have a kid, each time you have a baby it gets a little more of your brain. Then, when you have four, like me, you have no brain left, LOL

OH, and , good morning SL. Bet it came early after a 2pm bedtime this morning!

[3WishesDun]

Thank you for that information Cindy!
Very interesting!

[Chester]

Originally Posted by doublebarr

Yep, I've managed to achieve that, too. It's done this way, have a kid, each time you have a baby it gets a little more of your brain. Then, when you have four, like me, you have no brain left, LOL

OH, and , good morning SL. Bet it came early after a 2pm bedtime this morning!

2 AM you mean. After my shower I was wide awake again. It was after 3 before I got to sleep.

Could be a good day for a nanny nap for me.

[doublebarr]

Oops, yep, meant AM. Geeze SL, I don't think I can do that anymore. It's 8pm here and I could go to bed right now, LOL.

[Equine Repro]

Mmm...perhaps we need to look at it a different way. The number of ET's that "doubled" went from 1% of the total number of foals registered to 1.8% of the total number of foals registered. Additionally, one must remember that in order to justify doing an ET, the foal should have an estimated value of not less than $10,000 before it even hits the ground! And lastly, the mares that are being used for ET's generally are top quality mares, so hopefully, the animals that are being perpetuated are through ET's are the best of the best. And, for a breeder to be attempting to get several foals out of a particular mare by a particular stallion, there must be a reason for it! While they may repeat the breedings for a few years, it still is a small number, comparatively speaking. So, instead of having one foal by the same stallion for four or five years, the breeder is able to produce 3 or 4 of the same cross in one year. What a super way to determine if the cross is really working! If it works, super! If it doesn't, the breeder has the opportunity to try something else!

Additionally, part of the increase numbers you're seeing with ET's is probably a direct result of the whole process being perfected. Horses by their very design, unlike cows, rarely produce more than 1 or 2 eggs each ovulation. While the development of eFSH (Equine Follicle Stimulating Hormone) and it is now commercially available, it still doesn't result in anywhere near the number of ovulations that similar products do in other species. And, some other statistics to consider. When doing embryo transfers, 50% of flushes will actually result in an embryo. Of those flushes, the transfer rate of success is about 75%. So, your final success rate for an ET is about 33% overall. With the use of eFSH, it does double your chances of success, so you're now up around 66%. Not the greatest, in any event.

I think that people get hung up on the lack of diversity, but doing what we do, we actually see an INCREASE in genetic diversity by the use of assisted reproductive technologies. Indeed, one highly successful breeder that does use eFSH on a mare that is known to have multiple ovulations, actually breeds that mare to multiple stallions on the one cycle. When the foals are born the following year, they are all DNA'd to figure out "Who's my Daddy" <grin>. The breeder states that she does it because she recognizes that she has limited opportunities to get multiple foals out of this particular mare. She wants to optimize her diversity.

I breed warmbloods. I have a couple very, very good mares. I only breed when I am willing to keep the foal I produce or if I know I have a sale for the foal when it hits the ground. I will, upon occasion, do custom foals. When I do those custom foals, I prefer to just transfer the embryo into a recip mare. And, there have been a couple years when I planned on breeding for myself. Using ET's allows me to do that. As a breeder myself, I recognize the pitfalls that come with becoming tunnel visioned. One of the things we "do" teach in our courses is the fact that inbreeding does NOT naturally occur in the equine. It is a man-made phenomenon. So breeders need to be responsible for producing animals that are genetically sound. I still marvel at halter breeders who insist that not having Impressive in their breeding programs somewhere will result in animals that won't show well <banging head repeatedly against keyboard>. Now THAT's irresponsible breeding.

With that in mind, here is an article that I wrote almost 10 years ago <grin>... Genetic Roulette - Chance or Choice? on the topic. When I first was researching the article, it was before the multiple ET registration with the QH industry and it was when SCID and HYPP were probably at the height of their respective breeds hysteria. Both the QH and Arab industry were relatively new to transported semen, but in interviewing experts on SCID, it was acknowledged that the disease probably would never have become a problem if transported semen had been utilized and allowed earlier.

Yes, there will always be breeders that don't breed responsibly. But there are always those that have the long term welfare of their particular breed in mind. Because ET's and Cloning are relatively expensive, it won't be used extensively by most breeders - cloning especially.

While I understand the concerns, there are other things that occur in the breeding industry that concern me considerably more! I don't see the use of assisted reproductive technologies as unethical or as a risk to the genetic diversity of the various breeds. I see breeders as the problem.

Interesting topic on multiple levels <grin>. And believe me, I definitely have strong opinions on some things. But, cloning, ET's, semen freezing...nah. It's just something more that may or may not assist breeders in producing better animals. I would love to see animals that are superior athletically, have better immune systems, are healthier overall, and are sounder. Things like cloning and ET are probably going to be more expensive than the average breeder will be able to utilize. I use ET because I can do it myself. Would I clone a horse? Never a stallion as I can freeze semen from one and there's really no purpose behind it. A gelding? If he was absolutely phenomenal and had tons to offer to the breed. A mare? Possibly if she was an incredible produce and because I recognize that the contributions she can make in her life are limited and that freezing oocytes is still a limited proposition. And, FWIW, I've been breeding warmbloods for better than 20+ years now (where the heck has the time gone?). Warmbloods have embraced the advancements of breeding technology better and more quickly than just about any breed out there. There is very fertile semen still available on stallions that were, 20 years ago, believed to be the top stallions in the world! And they were!!! The operative word is WERE. Fads and trends change. Those same stallions just don't fit into breeding programs now. But, it's nice to know that one could go back if it was found say, in another 20 years, that maybe a particular stallion's impact on the breed was somewhat overlooked.

So, I wouldn't be too concerned about all the hoopla over something like Scamper or Smart Little Lena or ET or any of these horses having the opportunity to a "second life". There impact will be limited to what breeders can sell <grin>.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
Equine Reproduction



Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
Equine Reproduction

[Sandra-A1]

Thanks for acquiring and posting the figures Doublebarr.
Those are interesting.
It does seem that the Quarter Horse industry is more than willing to take advantage of and make use of all the latest reproductive technology.

I still have no problem with either embryo transfer and/or cloning.
I have seen a LOT of changes in the horse world during my life so far and I fully expect to see many, many more. What was once looked on with suspicion and even negativity several years ago is now so common that it is rarely given a second thought.
I believe that "the law of supply and demand" always ends up having it's effect on the final outcome...and I believe that it will on the embryo transfer and cloning as well.

These 2 methods of equine reproduction are very expensive and time consuming. If the end product is not of high enough quality and sells for enough to justify the expense then the people/breeders will lose money.
I understand that some are worried about the market being flooded with these horses, but from a business perspective it seems to me that breeders who do this are going to be shooting themselves in the foot and will be the cause of their own demise.
The high quality and successful competitors they produce will sell for nice prices. If they want to keep those prices up then they have to keep the demand up. Market saturation would result in a price drop as the demand would drop.
If they flood the market with their discards then people will naturally assume that their breeding program is not all that great and because of that I doubt they would be in business for much longer.

I must say that I have doubts that those who have the money to take advantage of these two methods of reproducing horses are going to do so without giving it serious thought and are trying to create quality horses that there is a demand and market for.

And.....as long as there is a good market you will see certain bloodlines and horses being used.....it is "the law of supply & demand" in action.

[John]

Where there is a will there is a way. As you know all TBs are live cover only!! However if you have the money I do know where you can purchase frozen semen from a winner of the Kentucky Derby that is no longer alive.