[endurgirl]

Doublebarr, I noticed that those mares you posted are cutting mares who are proven producers. I know Quejanamia produced Quejanaisalena who is the highest earning offspring from Smart Little Lena and who has earned I think $300,000+ in limited aged events. Justa Swinging Peanut sold herself a few years ago at the Western Bloodstock sale for $395,000. (As a broodmare). So saying that these mares having multiple ETs in one year is driving the prices down, I don't really think so. Eventually, I think ETs will drive the price of horses down, but right now it's paying.

There's a sale coming up in TX in Dec. and there will be many ET foals that will bring over $100,000. That is why the ET is paying now.

[Equine Repro]

Originally Posted by John

Where there is a will there is a way. As you know all TBs are live cover only!! However if you have the money I do know where you can purchase frozen semen from a winner of the Kentucky Derby that is no longer alive.

That's not unusual. There are many TB's out there that are available with frozen semen. Many are used as part of warmblood and sporthorse breeding market.

And, enduro girl is spot on. Those mares that are producing multiple foals through ET are at the top of the game. They're known for producing offspring that can perform, consequently, they ar ethe mares that you WANT to get as many foals out of as is feasibly possible. Even still, their impact on the breeding market is still no where comparable to what a stallion's impact can have...

There was a truly phenomenal article put out by Dr. Rober Miller (yeah...the guy that wrote the book on imprint training) recently on the "humanity" of modern day horse breeding - "And They Call Us Horse Lovers". It discusses how we push and push to produce horses for the quick return and start all kinds of young stock before they are mature. So, when one looks at a horse like Scamper, you're talking about a horse that not only was a phenomenal athlete, he also was an animal that stayed sound enough to perform for many, many years. Will the offspring be as capable as Scamper? Genetically, they will offer the same capabilities and attributes of Scamper. The ultimate question of what makes the horse - nuture vs nature question won't probably be answered, but then, it applies to any horse that is produced. You can have an offspring of any horse out there and because of the way it is raised, it may never meet it's full potential. And, with regards to Secratariat (he was used as an example in the original Scamper thread), he's actually a REALLY good example to use <grin>... The original poster is correct in that he never produced any offspring that were worthy of note on the track. HOWEVER, he ultimately proved himself as a broodmare sire and his daughters went on to produce winners <smile>... Additionally, someone was discussing Arab breeding and how you see Patron and a couple others repeatedly in Arab pedigrees...not so. What I "do" see in a lot of the various breeds is a certain amount of tunnel vision. If you breed for say reining horses, you'll see a lot of the same lines appear again and again. If you breed for halter horses (depending on the breeds, of course) you'll see a lot of the same animals again and again...but as time goes by and the fads and fashions change, those same names go further and further back into a pedigree and something else steps up to take the place.

Whether or not cloning is a move forward or merely a lateral move won't be known for another 10 years or so...and maybe longer as noted with Secratariat. The argument that it's just not "right" or it goes against "nature" doesn't cut it either. If you use that argument, horses shouldn't be kept fenced in or gelded or ridden, etc. And, the advances we've made in science for the health and well being of humans has resulted because of our constant quest for making life better. You can't have one without the other... Because we see a lot of what goes on behind the research, we also recognize some of the information will have applications in human medicine. I think, regardless of what the final outcome regarding cloning is, that's a wonderful benefit.

Am I going to run right out and breed to a clone? I dunno <grin>...it would depend if it would fit into my breeding program and what the breeding fee is. But, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it out of hand. Heaven knows there are breeders out there that are breeding for all the wrong reasons <sigh>...at least with a clone, I'm pretty well assured that the animal probably had some intrinsic value to the horse breeding industry.

Kathy St.Martin
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[John]

[quote=Equine Repro]That's not unusual. There are many TB's out there that are available with frozen semen. Many are used as part of warmblood and sporthorse breeding market.


This frozen seman is on its way back to the racetrack even with the Jockey Club rule of live cover!!

[Equine Repro]

Originally Posted by John

This frozen seman is on its way back to the racetrack even with the Jockey Club rule of live cover!!

That's not as unusual as some would believe either. There are many facilities that have a "closed barn" during breeding time.

Kathy St.Martin
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[madvoice]

Even with a closed barn its going to be hard to pull the wool. It would be here especially as all TBs are DNA typed to prove parentage...

[Equine Repro]

Originally Posted by madvoice

Even with a closed barn its going to be hard to pull the wool. It would be here especially as all TBs are DNA typed to prove parentage...

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. Many Thoroughbred breeding facility, rather than run the risk of live cover, collect the stallion and inseminate the mare with AI. The parentage will still be the same and they will DNA correctly. The use of any form of assisted reproductive technology is prohibited by the Jockey Club. Some of the really big TB breeding facilities actually video tape the breeding process, but you're dealing with multi million dollar stallions and HUGE breeding fees on those animals, so they want to avoid ANY suscipicion that the breeding was done any way but the old fashioned way. There were serveral TB registrations thrown out a few years ago when it was discovered that the mares and the stallion weren't in the same location during the alleged time of mating But, I have no doubt that there are more than the occasional TB breeder that partakes in some of the more modern methods of breeding. Personally, I won't run the risk of live cover with any of my stallions. But then, I don't breed Thoroughbreds

madvoice, I believe there is currently a "challenge" going on with the Australian Jockey Club with regards to ET. It'll be interesting to see what the outcome of that is. I haven't heard anything on it for a bit, so I may have to go do some research on it to see how things are progressing. I suspect it will be a long, drawn out process <grin>...

Hope that helps clarify my previous statement.

Kathy St.Martin
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