[CatandMinot]

I have been looking around and doing research online for a dressage saddle. I decided to stop by a consignment tack store after class today and found a Wintec Isabell Dressage saddle that I could take home and try. It's a 17" and currently has an Medium-Wide gullet installed.

I also stopped by Dover and sat in several dressage saddles to see what I liked/ fit me the best... and the Isabell was still a definite favorite. The Wintec 500 was really slippery and had a shallow seat; the new Bates Innova (just sat in for fun) was extremely confining with the contour blocks, and I just was not all that impressed for a nearly $2k saddle...; the Circuit dressage wasn't too bad and was priced pretty reasonably. I also sat in the Wintec Isabell in a 18" seat, but it just seemed too big. If I have to move up a seat size, I'm going to try the 17 1/2" instead.

But anyway, here are the (lots of) pictures:

For Minot?:






Sitting in it:


For Me?:





And a couple of videos:

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...t=MVI_0848.flv
http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...t=MVI_0849.flv

So what do you guys think?

Thanks!

[firegurl979]

Its too far forward..

[CatandMinot]

Originally Posted by firegurl979

Its too far forward..

I checked the placement several times... I brought it up onto her withers and rocked it back until it stopped. If you look where the billet straps hang down in the pictures of only it on her back, that's where the saddle would normally go anyway.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to explain/ clarify.

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

I see a few things....

For Minot:
1) that saddle is WAY WAY too far forward. You need to move it back about 3". See where the back/top of his shoulder is? The front of the saddle needs to be about 2 fingers width behind that point.

2) In it's currently position it is NOT wide enough -- that is why it appears that the pommel is too high & the blance of the saddle is towards the back of the seat. THe cantle on this saddle IS VERY high, and should be higher than the pommel.

3) I like the looks of the panels sitting on Minot from left to right though -- that's a great thing!

4) I looked through you gallery photos for a confo view of Minot's back, and as I suspected looking at the above photos, I believe that the front to back shape to this saddle is too flat for Minot.

5) please, please, please pull your saddle pads UP into the pommel of the any saddle you ride on any horse. If you don't when you tighten up the girth it acutally pulls the pad taunt against the horses whithers which can cause rubs & sores.

For You:
1) Yes, this seat size is too small for you. You should have 4 fingers width behind your bum & about the same in front of your crotch. That is something that you just don't have here. I honestly think you'd probably fit better in the 18". This saddle is VERY deep seated, and that eats up alot of the size of the seat in all honesty.

2) With the current saddle placement and you're above photos of you sitting in the saddle, this saddle is tilting your pelvis back too much, so that your bum is TOO far under you, and your crotch is too high. This could & likely will change once you move the saddle back into the correct placement and the balance of the saddle is acutally in the center of the saddle.

3) Because of the pommel being so high, I suspect that is why you have your stirrups as short as you do. When I watched the video you are really having to work to post to get up and over that pommel (because it's higher than it should be) With that being said, you aren't able to really FEEL your horse and aren't allowing his movement to push you up & out of the saddle -- aka you are posting ahead of your horses motion. He does appear rather smooth, which could also make this a bit harder for you.

4) Because you have your stirrups to short for this saddle, your knee is ON or at the tip of the knee block. Your knee should be well behind the edge of the flap. I can't say for sure, but it's possible that with moving the saddle back into the correct placement, therefore solving the balance issues, and lengtening your stirrups that this could go away. Then again, I could be wrong, as I know of a number of people (myself included) who struggle with their knees & the edge of the flap being so close. This could also have something to do with your hip flexors not being use to riding in a dressage saddle (I'm not sure if this is the case or not, mearly guessing bassed on your position in this saddle), and therefore aren't "open enough" to allow your thigh to hang more perpendicular to the ground.

While none of these really give you a good angle, you can probably see a few things. This is ME in the Wintec Isabell on the DWB I have in training. I want to comment that this saddle is an 18" and as you can see I'm a bean pole so the saddle is massively too big for me. I help this fact by putting a Cashel seat saver on it to help "take up some room". Also look at the jumping photos to give you an idea of how far back the saddle should be placed (this one slides forward a bit, so this isn't even where it should be) & it will also give you an idea of how the pommel to cantle blance is supposse to be. I wish to also draw your attention to the fact that you can clearly see dry spots in the 1st confo photo, which is because this saddle is also too flat, front to back, for Torreau's (horse pictures) back, so the saddle is bridging, meaning all pressure where the sweaty marks are & none where the dry marks are. Also you can see that this saddle slides up based on where the sweat starts. I know this, but sadly this is the only saddle wide enough (x-wide gullet in here) to fit this horse, and since he's up for sale, his owner will not be buying him another saddle
Link to photos:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v281/ryckie/Torreau/

Hopefully this is helpful -- let me know if I can help any further

PS, thanks for posting a thread with a saddle type I know (dressage) & a saddle that I have TONES of experience with

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

Originally Posted by CatandMinot

I checked the placement several times... I brought it up onto her withers and rocked it back until it stopped. If you look where the billet straps hang down in the pictures of only it on her back, that's where the saddle would normally go anyway.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to explain/ clarify.

Sorry, but you can't JUST go purely on the placement of the billets. You have to look at the shoulder and place the saddle according to the shoulder -- not the placement of the elbows (where most people think the girth should ALWAYS go)

Also your above 1st comment solidifies my thoughts that this saddle is to "flat shapped" for your horse. When you slide it back till it stopped, it stopped because the back panels were "stuck at the bottom of the hill" in your horses' back (bottom of hill referring to the lowest point of your horses' back before it starts to go uphill towards the croop). The saddle didn't stop because it was in the correct position! *sigh* I know all about this, because I have to wiggle Torreau's saddle back anotehr 2inches for the same reason that is also why it likes to migrate forward too

[Capilet]

My guess is Minot is shaped rather similarly to my draftX mare, Cayenne. For her, the Wintec dressage saddles are much too flat. We recently upgraded to a Frank Baines Reflex. Cay also requires an anatomical girth, as her saddle placement is quite far back.

[CatandMinot]

Wow! Thanks for the in-depth critique! I really appreciate it!!

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

For Minot:
1) that saddle is WAY WAY too far forward. You need to move it back about 3". See where the back/top of his shoulder is? The front of the saddle needs to be about 2 fingers width behind that point.

Okay, I see what you mean here. I'll have to try it and get more pictures tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

2) In it's currently position it is NOT wide enough -- that is why it appears that the pommel is too high & the balance of the saddle is towards the back of the seat. The cantle on this saddle IS VERY high, and should be higher than the pommel.

I've had problems with her being sweatier towards the cantle with my CC-- now I'm guessing it's just because I need to slide it back some. Interesting...

I noticed the high pommel when taking the pictures, but I'm new to dressage (only been taking lessons for a month... I'm a hunter-convert! haha) and didn't know if that was just normal for the pommel of this saddle to be so high. I'll slide it back, take more pictures tomorrow afternoon, and then reassess.

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

3) I like the looks of the panels sitting on Minot from left to right though -- that's a great thing!

I know! It's the first saddle I've found that actually fits her here! The increased width definitely helps a lot though!

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

4) I looked through you gallery photos for a confo view of Minot's back, and as I suspected looking at the above photos, I believe that the front to back shape to this saddle is too flat for Minot.

I don't know... here is my photobucket link from pictures of her from this year: http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ot/5yo%202009/ for more examples...

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

5) please, please, please pull your saddle pads UP into the pommel of the any saddle you ride on any horse. If you don't when you tighten up the girth it actually pulls the pad taunt against the horses whithers which can cause rubs & sores.

Oh I ALWAYS pull them way up into the pommel. Right before these pics were taken, we started cantering for a couple strides, and she bucked from still being unbalanced/ out of shape. The saddle slid to the right, and the pad slid down onto her withers. The pad is also an old and lumpy. I normally don’t use it, but my usual CC pads were too short for the saddle.

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

For You:
1) Yes, this seat size is too small for you. You should have 4 fingers width behind your bum & about the same in front of your crotch. That is something that you just don't have here. I honestly think you'd probably fit better in the 18". This saddle is VERY deep seated, and that eats up alot of the size of the seat in all honesty.

That’s what I figured would be the problem. I was planning on getting a larger size when I actually found one too. Normally I ride in a 17 to 17 ½ anyway with my cc/ ap. I heard that with the Isabell’s you have to have at least a whole inch larger in order to compensate for the deep seat.

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

2) With the current saddle placement and you're above photos of you sitting in the saddle, this saddle is tilting your pelvis back too much, so that your bum is TOO far under you, and your crotch is too high. This could & likely will change once you move the saddle back into the correct placement and the balance of the saddle is actually in the center of the saddle.

I’ll try again tomorrow…

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

3) Because of the pommel being so high, I suspect that is why you have your stirrups as short as you do. When I watched the video you are really having to work to post to get up and over that pommel (because it's higher than it should be) With that being said, you aren't able to really FEEL your horse and aren't allowing his movement to push you up & out of the saddle -- aka you are posting ahead of your horses motion. He does appear rather smooth, which could also make this a bit harder for you.

Well the stirrup length is due to them being off of my CC and on the third-to-last hole. I’ve also only had 3 or 4 dressage lessons so far and am still getting the hang of the longer stirrup length. In this picture I’m trying to get her into the corner/ bend around my leg and was using my spur- creating an even shorter leg.

I did have trouble posting in the saddle though since the pommel was so high. I’m pretty sure I made a comment about it to my sister when she was filming us, but you can’t hear it on the video. It was the only thing I didn’t like about the saddle… otherwise it was insanely comfortable. She is extremely smooth too and that probably didn’t help any either with using her motion… or lack of it! Haha

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

4) Because you have your stirrups to short for this saddle, your knee is ON or at the tip of the knee block. Your knee should be well behind the edge of the flap. I can't say for sure, but it's possible that with moving the saddle back into the correct placement, therefore solving the balance issues, and lengthening your stirrups that this could go away. Then again, I could be wrong, as I know of a number of people (myself included) who struggle with their knees & the edge of the flap being so close. This could also have something to do with your hip flexors not being use to riding in a dressage saddle (I'm not sure if this is the case or not, merely guessing based on your position in this saddle), and therefore aren't "open enough" to allow your thigh to hang more perpendicular to the ground.

This saddle didn’t have knee blocks in it (flexiblocks in this case)—another reason I was going to pass on it since I would have to buy them somewhere and the price was already high-ish for the condition it’s in. Just for the record if it matters.

I don’t know what to tell you? I’ll try again tomorrow. I’ll slide it further back on her back and drop my stirrups to the last hole (even that might not be enough though… I’ll have to see). Too many variables going on to tell right now.

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

While none of these really give you a good angle, you can probably see a few things. This is ME in the Wintec Isabell on the DWB I have in training. I want to comment that this saddle is an 18" and as you can see I'm a bean pole so the saddle is massively too big for me. I help this fact by putting a Cashel seat saver on it to help "take up some room". Also look at the jumping photos to give you an idea of how far back the saddle should be placed (this one slides forward a bit, so this isn't even where it should be) & it will also give you an idea of how the pommel to cantle balance is supposed to be. I wish to also draw your attention to the fact that you can clearly see dry spots in the 1st confo photo, which is because this saddle is also too flat, front to back, for Torreau's (horse pictures) back, so the saddle is bridging, meaning all pressure where the sweaty marks are & none where the dry marks are. Also you can see that this saddle slides up based on where the sweat starts. I know this, but sadly this is the only saddle wide enough (x-wide gullet in here) to fit this horse, and since he's up for sale, his owner will not be buying him another saddle
Link to photos:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v281/ryckie/Torreau/

Hopefully this is helpful -- let me know if I can help any further

PS, thanks for posting a thread with a saddle type I know (dressage) & a saddle that I have TONES of experience with

This has definitely helped a ton! Thanks so much!

Would you recommend trying again tomorrow by dropping the stirrup length and sliding it further back? Sure I’m still going to need a larger seat size, but just for reference to see if I should even try a different size or just a completely different saddle?

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

Sorry, but you can't JUST go purely on the placement of the billets. You have to look at the shoulder and place the saddle according to the shoulder -- not the placement of the elbows (where most people think the girth should ALWAYS go)

Yeah I’m learning. I’m a “noob” with this dressage stuff! haha

Originally Posted by Rhythm 'n Blues

Also your above 1st comment solidifies my thoughts that this saddle is to "flat shaped" for your horse. When you slide it back till it stopped, it stopped because the back panels were "stuck at the bottom of the hill" in your horses' back (bottom of hill referring to the lowest point of your horses' back before it starts to go uphill towards the croup). The saddle didn't stop because it was in the correct position! *sigh* I know all about this, because I have to wiggle Torreau's saddle back another 2inches for the same reason that is also why it likes to migrate forward too

I see exactly what you mean now. So should I just try a different saddle? Would the dressage pro be any better or are they both on the same tree?

Thanks again!

[Rhythm 'n Blues]

Good for you for always pulling the pad up into the gullet! I didn't realise it wasn't a dressage pad -- but that explains it

If you ride in a 17-17.5 in a CC or AP saddle, you should be in at least an 18" in this Isabell saddle. Now, there are people out there who like the feeling of a smaller saddle. I mean if you feel like the only fish in the sea in the 18" then perhaps that isn't the size for you

I totally KNEW you weren't normally a dressage rider (sorry just proud that i was right in me eye ) I just didn't want to make any assumptions or anything. This will come with time. Not having knee blocks makes sense now that I think about it. I was wondering how that was comfy for ya...but that explains it. I didn't even notice the blocks were missing. That being said, I forgot to mention that your "1/4 shoulder angles" of the saddle are too close up, When you re-do them make sure you can see the entire length of the saddle flap in your photo. If you made any comments about posting in the saddle on the video, I wouldn't have heard them anyways, as I have no sound on my computer.

I honestly would try it again tomorrow for sure! Move it back, and drop your stirrups, but remember felling like you're searching for your irons won't help you at this point. Yes purchasing new blocks is expensive. I don't know the asking price on this saddle, but they do tend to hold their value quite well, jsut so you know.

Don't worry about not knowing about this Dressage stuff. The saddles & their placements look much different then the CC or AP saddles. I don't have enough hands on with CC or AP so while I have some knowledge & can apply many things, I'm still not as good as with the dressage stuff.....perhaps you'll be good at both after you find Minot a saddle

Looking at the pro & other wintec lines, they are all relatively the same "flattness" to them. Now saying that I did check out the link you gave me to your photobucket account, and in this photo:

her back acutally appears straight.......as well as the one where her nose is on the ground.

Now I want JB to come over here, and see what she says. I'm wondering if this saddle might be work-able for Minot, providing when she has her back lifted she is that flat. That is a question I have acutally pondered more than once......but never had any good photos to demonstrate what I was meaning/talking about! Hopefully JB will see this & come on over. If not I'll have to send a msg to :P

[JBandRio]

In this picture


the saddle looks like it's in the right place. The point of the tree is *roughly* right in front of the stirrup bar, and assuming that's the case here, this looks to be behind the shoulder blade.

It looks better place than in this picture, which does indeed look about 2"+ too forward


The saddle looks tipped back here, which also points to it being too forward.

The biggest issue is that if *this* saddle is slid back any further (more than in the first pic in this post) it's going to run into the upward curve of the horse's back. This is a pretty flat tree and panel. I almost don't like it on this horse for that reason - it's borderline in that fit area.

That also explains the added sweat in the back - too much panel pressure.

In the 2 riding pics, the ones which are mostly side-on, the saddle looks too far forward. In its correct position, I think you will find you can fit a VERY generous hands' width between the horse's elbow and girth. Like, probably 1.5 widths.

As R&B said, the girth ends up where the girth ends up - you can't place the saddle to fit a certain girth position. So many people are used to seeing saddles too far forward, which end up with girths right at the horse's elbow. That's wrong

Now, what can easily happen is the girth will slide forward, causing incorrect pressure, even pulling the saddle forward. The fix is a different type of girth, such as an anatomically shaped one.

[CatandMinot]

I haven't had time to try on the saddle again and get pics, and I have to take it back today. I'm pretty sure the panels are going to be too flat for her back anyway. She is pretty even in the front end and back end, so I think if I slid it back I would have the same problem that Rhythm 'n Blues has with hers... Oh well.

Do you think that something like this would work better? The panels aren't so wide and the saddle seems to be wide enough. It wouldn't hurt to try it anyway...: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

or this a 18" Extra wide tree: http://cgi.ebay.com/County-WB-Black-...item3a53bfec5f