[Moostang]

Hmm, I found a rescue doing something similar (last paragraph talks about endorphins) They are claiming it is the flexion in the neck not the pressure.

http://www.horseadoption.com/bitting.htm

[Endorphins4u2]

That was interesting,

"If the horse perceives there is no escape, it may flip over in frustration. Usually, a simple squeeze on the nose or manually pushing it's head toward its chest, will make a light bulb go off. Be sure the horse understands the concept before stepping away for another 30 minutes."

The reason they flip over is identical to the BLOW-POINT the twitch produces, it is a last ditched effort to escape because their legs are going on them, like I said the endorphins or adreneline (for our friend) are burning up the horse's energy and if they don't do something out of the ordinary like attack with front feet or flip over which they sometimes do with the twitch they have to lie down to rest..

Pushing the head towards it's chest is the same as I said before about the one reins stop, " tying the horse's head around " will zonk them out and you have to slap them or kick them or do something like push their heads to their chest to snap them out of it and it's like waking someone that is sleep walking , going from a sleep stage to instantly awake will freak you out, again with the twitch, before they BLOW you will notice they lift their heads and are awake, only to see a twitch on their nose.

Wouldn't you go Ballistic if woke and someone was causeing you pain ?

I have video's of horse's being tapped and trying to BLOW before they lie down, this BLOW-POINT is the last chance the horse has to escape only with the tap there is nothing to attack so they just lie down and rest..

[Friesiangirl]

peg_d your joking...right?

[Shotgun93]

Originally Posted by Endorphins4u2

When you put a twitch on a horse, the horse cannot move right, have you ever tried to lead a horse with a twitch on, well if you have turned your horse's head around and held it there, your horse CANNOT move. You just zonked it out with endorphins like the twitch. Even if they wanted to move they can't, shifting your weight won't help, you have to either slap them or kick them hard to for the brain activity to snap them out of it again..

Um, actually, the horse can move with his head turned around. In fact, when we first teach one rein stops, the horse moves a lot. No, they don't go forward, they pivot around their front end until they realize that moving around isn't the answer. Then, when they put slack in the rein, they get the release. I have never had a horse lay down with me. I have had horses "wait" me out, trying to get me to release before they do, but when they do this, I yield their hind end. And, I don't have to "slap them or kick them hard" as you put it.

Originally Posted by Endorphins4u2

How many people have had a horse stand there and refuse to turn or give ?

None, they always give to me eventually, and again, they never fall over or lay down in the process.

Originally Posted by Endorphins4u2

How many people have got off because the horse wouldn't move ?

I have never gotten off a horse because he wouldn't move. What would that teach the horse? That if I just stand here and refuse to move, she gets off and I don't have to work. What good does that do?

Originally Posted by Endorphins4u2

When this happens you have to let their heads go wait a few moments for the horse's compossure to come back then give them a niggle..

I am not entirely sure what a niggle is, but I wouldn never let the head go. Again, what does that teach? That if he out-waits me, I give in and release his head. A horse has all the time in the world to wait, they count on the fact that you don't.


I am not putting down the method, I am just trying to understand it. Which is something that any good horses trainer would do. I am asking questions because I really want to know if this would really work or not.

I wouldn't use it for training, because I think that there are better ways to deal with training. For instance Peg D, we had a friesian that was horrible when it came to feet. And, being that he weighed about 1800 pounds, he was a little bit harder to do normal training with him. But, we managed to get him to stand perfectly still for the ferrier after only about two hours of work for about three days. We didn't use a twitch, we didn't use any drugs or beat him. We just made him realize that if he stood still life would be a lot easier, but if he kicked out, tried to run us over, or danced around, he would have to work a whole lot harder.

I guess my last question is: How would you be able to use this method on an out of control horse that absolutely needed work done now? If he was running people over, nervous, scared and dangerous, how do you get him calm enough to use the tap?

[stockhorse]

Well,what an interesting reply.

Firstly lets talk specifics .What endorphin are you claiming is being released by this method? Is it a Beta Endorphin ? Are you saying that morphine addicts don't require increasing dosages to get a high and in time can require morphine at high dosages to maintain "normality?(keeping in mind that a beta endorphin is 20 more times powerful than morphine)
Could you refer me to any studies that link wind sucking to endorphin addiction and does this mean that a horse that this procedure is used on regularly will become a windsucker?

Since you have consulted the world's leading authorities on endorphins could you please post their names and contact details so I might also consult them?

Could you also explain to me how one substance,adrenalin,which raises blood pressure,temperature,heart rate and respiration rate and decreases blood flow to the skin can work in so well together with a substance, endorphin, that lowers the heart rate,the respiration rate and blood pressure? These 2 substances are created by the horse for 2 entirely different purposes.

"Next , the horses most people are looking after are well past the learning stage, they are already programed that way, you can only work around it"
are you saying this is really only a work around for horses with bad training?

If the research is coming does that mean you have now started some research to either verify or deny what is really at the moment just a theory?


As regards you last post it is in no-way similar to"blow out'. the horse is simply trying to move away from pressure but cannot work out how to. The pushing the horses head toward it's chest removes the pressure from the reins and it quickly learns that it simply needs to do this to move away from the pressure.

And last
The staff are not stupid.

Cheers Bud

[thisoldhat68]

your an idiot no one should ever get on the back of a yearling horses thats why we always see youg horses with sway backs and are sent off because they have been ruined i dont break any of my horses to ride untill there 3 yrs old but thats just my pref. but hey what do I know about horses im just a dumb ranch cowboy from montana

[Moostang]

Originally Posted by thisoldhat68

your an idiot no one should ever get on the back of a yearling horses thats why we always see youg horses with sway backs and are sent off because they have been ruined i dont break any of my horses to ride untill there 3 yrs old but thats just my pref. but hey what do I know about horses im just a dumb ranch cowboy from montana

And with that rude, tactless reponse I am closing this thread. I am sorry but I can't spend all day monitoring one thread because people do not know how to repond with tact and grace, you may disagree, but do it without name calling. Although I have to say there has been good thoughtful debates from those who disagreed, but they did it in a thoughtout tactful way.

Feel free to continue any discussions via PM with the originator.