[JumpsxGlory]

I made a thread to compare Ollie from about a year ago to know and many people said he needs to engage his hind end and I agree. I don't exactly know how to train him to do so though... Any tips??

[eventin_papa]

bring your leg back and puch him forward from the back end. keep your hands up and drive with your seat and leg, but resist with your stomach. pm if you want other help

[JumpsxGlory]

What do you mean by resist with my stomach??

[Laceycowgrl]

I will ask my horse to canter 5-7 strides, then ask to stop, back up, collect, then ask into canter again. when you are asking for the canter directly from backing, the horse has already engaged the hind quarters. I also noticed, this will work on transistions at the same time. I do this several times each side. I have a working cow horse and this really helps her engage from her hinds and not her front.

[Dancinglite]

Originally Posted by JumpsxGlory

I made a thread to compare Ollie from about a year ago to know and many people said he needs to engage his hind end and I agree. I don't exactly know how to train him to do so though... Any tips??

I am really not trying to push this article but rather than repost everything about balance thrust and drive again.........

The following is an article that I wrote on the very same subject. I cannot post a link as this BB rules do not allow direct links to other BB's so I copied and pasted it for you.

But just for your information the place where the head eventually come to is the direct result of the level of collection and conformation of the horse.


Balance Collection and Forward the basis for more advanced dressage work.

Article submitted by from our Messageboard from M J Fryer
Thank you for the excellent article.

Let me just start by saying that I have ridden dressage for over 30 years and have develop an appreciation of its art and beauty. In its purest form it takes you to the heights of soaring on invisible wings and gently lets you down on the softest of cushions.

Good horsemanship has been around for ages and training techniques practiced by the classic trainers of old never die.. These trainers practiced horsemanship and they understood its wants and reactions in the same manner that our new trainers espouse. A horse reacts the same now as it did 100 years ago when you first put a bit in its mouth.

Common sense, compassion, an understanding of the horse along with correct training techniques will allow you to developed your horse to its fullest. Training a dressage horse to compete at the international level requires the very maximum out of the horse and the results can be physically devastating. But if you want that level you need to be prepared to sacrifice something.

I have been told that I will never get the high scores of 70% or more and they are right. I will push my horse only so far. I would rather end up 8th with 60% and come home with a sound horse than a lame one. Interesting this is the very philosophy that classical dressage is based on.. The purpose being to developed the horse to the best that horse is capable of. Competitive dressage is a totally different ball of wax. They will win......but at what cost

The following is my interpretation of classical dressage and my own judgement that I developed to create a way to practice good sense with older classical dressage techniques. Does it require gimmicks......no. Does it require common sense......yes with an understanding of the workings of the horse

Three words that seem to send people into a state of confusion are collection, balance and forward. Any one cannot exist without the other as each is required to be present to a certain degree to make the picture whole.

Forward can be described as the addition of thrust from the hind quarters to propel the horse into a certain direction. It can also be described as the absence of constraint developing into suppleness. It is from this we can develop a correct head carriage. As a result of the horse reaching for the bit the back becomes more active and carries the riders seat forward without rough bounces, The ribs expand with the rear legs reaching more under itself causing them to press closer to the riders leg. The rider will feel a slight lifting of the forehand and there will be more of the horse in front of him. The rider is in effect changing the horse from a natural balance to an acquired balance.

Acquired balance requires a horse to maintain its rhythm by even distribution of the weight ( work) load on each leg. Without this, equilibrium is imperiled and the horse loses balance and hurries. Each step will be going faster and faster in an effort to gain its balance. The rider even with sitting deep may not be able to help the horse once it has reached a certain point.

To achieve " acquired balance" the rider maintains contact with the horse through the lowest point of the saddle. Sitting slightly behind the hips the spine swings with the horse with the lower leg remaining in contact but not gripping the horse. These together induce the flexion and extension of the rear legs. If the rider "feels" the horse they will realize that movement in the horses body provide an " alternating" left/right leg control. Allowing this movement to come into passive resistive hands and increasing the lateral flexion to the outside rein by "vibrating" the inner rein to induce the horse to come softer on that side.

This driving will in essence strengthen the topline and by producing a longer more energetic stride within the horse and create more energetic pulsations along the dorsal muscle group, the whole spinal column is stretched towards the front causing the horse to become supple and contact with the bit. The activity of the hindquarters counterbalances the stretching and maintains equilibrium. The training and gymnastic exercising of these muscles will allow them to do their job and become stronger, therefore "fill out" the topline.

In a horse moving properly the back is extended two ways......downward and to the rear. This double extension owing to the stretching of the hindquarters makes the topline--croup,back and the crest of the neck longer in collection than in any other posture. It will also allow the horse to adapt to the bit by having the hind quarter strength to be lowered and allowing it to adapt to the bit.

The bit is accepted by the horse as a result of driving the horses rear quarters more underneath himself which causes the pulsations from this forward reach to pass along the spinal column, through the riders driving seat to the poll. This will cause the forehand to rise and the horse adapts to the bit according to its conformation.

Long explanation and easy to do once you understand the mechanics involved.

The biggest problem most people have is that they ride the horse from front to back and all that does is stifle the forward reach of the rear legs. The end result is the horses balance goes off and the horse either leans on the bit or throws their head up. The rear legs in both cases travel behind the horse and it will either run to try to bring it's balance together or just play the "lazy" game.

The other biggest fault is to ride the horse forward but to the point that the horse is running into the bit and is balancing itself on the bit. In this case the rider has failed to ask the horse to balance on the outside rein.A properly trained dressage horse is "caught" between a driving inside leg a supportive outside leg and a soft light inside rein and a communicative and supporting outside rein.Without this the horse has all sorts of evasions such as balking or running out.

I teach all my students to ride the rein forward. To do this the horse is on the outside rein with a little more pressure than the inside rein. The inside foot will prevent the horse from falling in. The outside foot applies enough pressure to turn the forehand 1/4 the width of the horse towards the inside. This ensures correct contact with the outside rein, prevent the falling out of the horse and act as a counter to the inside foot. After the initial hold release ONE rein very slightly only as far as the next step the horse will take and resume contact afterwards. This might appear as a circular almost massaging motion of the hand. Upon resumption of contact a slight vibration of the rein will ensure the horse does not "sit" on the rein. This is repeated on the opposite rein. THIS IS NOT SAWING as proper contact MUST be attained by one rein before the release of the opposite rein is started. DO NOT RELEASE the outside rein to the horse when in training and in a corner or on a curve.

Very shortly you will find that the horse will maintain a headset according to the degree of collection requested with only the slightest touch of the rein.and you can test this by a full release of both reins for a step or two.

If we have reached this stage then collection either of a greater or lesser nature can be asked for however we must not be fooled by the horse that evades this demand and creates the appearance of collection. These horses will have legs that will appear to move correctly but there is no connection between the legs back and poll. These horses go with a stiffened or hollow back and lull even some of the best riders into thinking they are "collected".

It is not unusual for these horses to simply raise their legs higher, but the suspension and support phase within the traveling arc of the rear legs is not there. The legs are barely on the ground before they are lifted, usually as a snap as opposed to thrust and support which is actually required. This can be seen readily in the gaited horses esp. saddlebreds where the neck is tucked and the poll is the highest point the back is often hollowed and the rear legs do not truly support the body.

As the horse shortens the stride (to provide support) and reaches forward the abdominal muscles MUST contract to support the connection from the rear to the front hence collection. The horse must have a rounded back and cannot fulfill the demands the rider will ask with a hollow back. True collection can be felt by the riders seat and legs. As the rear legs become more supportive the ribs will expand and "fill" out the riders legs, almost like them being pushed outwards. The loss of collection can be felt by the rider as the horse suddenly disappearing from under him and causing his legs hanging limply.

Throughout all of this training it is imperative the rider understand the half-halt and the halt. To explain them I offer this.

The halt is achieved by the deepening of the riders seat and stimulation of the horses hindquarters to reach forward and underneath his body, thus accepting a greater load of weight. The stimulation is the result of the riders leg pressure on both sides of the horses body causing the "lifting" of the spine to meet the rider's seat.

The rider will keep his upper body straight and push through the small of his back into passive and sustaining hands. They will accept any pull on the reins if necessary and remain unchanged. Once halted the rider allow a slight relaxation of the upper body and at the same time will advance the hands slightly to give the horse a period of relaxation. This relaxation is a vital part of the training process because without them nervousness and restlessness will set in.Any roughness or excessive action on the part of the rider will cause the failure of a soft and fluid stop.

In the half halts the method is the same with the sole difference being that the hands will allow the motion to continue. In this case the driving controls will outweigh the restraining ones.

As far as half-halts it is the one subject that seems to create endless discussions and usually ending in no one being any the wiser than before. When you go to forums dealing specifically with dressage and you still see the endless pages of discussions by well known trainers and no real resolution then we are in good company.

Different trainers create descriptions of what it is and what it does to the point that we appear to be entering a country with a different language. Combine this with its use that will vary as the horse progress causes its interpretation to be based on one horses reaction. However when applied equally to another the cause and effect can differ greatly.

On the basic level the half-halt is used to signal the horse that a decrease in rate is being asked for. It could also be a signal to improve its balance or lighten the horses weight on the reins.

On the highest level the half halt becomes the merest whisper of controls in that it is created with the seat and hinted at with the reins.

[SweetSavannah]

ok some excercises that will help your horse to work over the back end/through the hind quarters.

EXCERCISE ONE
on a 20m circle at the trot, concentrate on pusing the horse forward with your legs and seat. keep your upper body still. push push push until you feel the horse is moving quite fast in the trot. then start to apply a little pressure on the rein, slowly take up a contact and start to raise you hands higher (but not back towards you) until you are carrying them in front of you almost at shoulder height. do not stop pushing the horse forward. you must keep pushing him into the light contact. do not be scared to push him forward into a fast trot. the speed does not matter at this point, only that he is going forwards into your light rein contact. there will come a point where he will pull against your hands, you must use your leg to push him through that. then he will soften and drop his head a fraction, he will start to chew the bit. it can be very subtle and hard to notice, but as soon as you feel him do it go back into walk and reward him on a long rein.

EXCERCISE TWO
on a circle or going large around the whole arena at a trot, ask your horse to do lots of little transitions. push him forward (as described before) into the rein contact and when he is moving forward freely ask him to slow down in the trot and go into walk. let him do three walk strides then immediately push him forward into trot. dont worry about his head too much at first, just focus on getting him to move forward actively off your leg. start to reduce the walk strides to one walk stride before asking him to trot. dont worry about wat you have to do to get him to trot, it doesnt matter how pretty it looks, just make him trot when you ask him. practice this until you have him confidently moving into an active trot when you ask. you can gradually start to ask him to go on the bit, as long as he is moving forward actively, not shuffling along.

EXCERCISE THREE
ride large around the arena at a trot. going down the long side push him forward with your legs so that he travels faster but does not change rhythm. so the speed that you are rising to the trot stays the same, his head remains light in front, you carry your hands slightly higher than normal and keep your upper body still.

as you approach the corner about 10metres out from the corner itself start to slow your rising, brace through your back (pretend as though your abdomen is pushing forward against an imaginary hand), push down in your stirrups. hold with the rein contact but avoid tugging or pulling continuosly, it should just be a steady firm hold that says to the horse "i want you to slow down". slow the horse down so that you are hardly rising at all, almost at a walk. remain like this through the corner, then when you get to the long side push the horse out again and repeat. eventually you can ask for this with him staying on the bit the horse should by now (if you have done all the excercises correctly) be moving forward actively off your leg into a rein contact. when you slow down in the trot it should remain active, not a shuffle. the horse should be stepping freely with his legs and his hocks should be showing good movement. he should be hardly travelling forward, but his body should be moving as though he is. if he breaks into a walk (which will happen the first few times) reduce the amount of slow collected steps you ask him to take. always finish by pushing him into a forward trot down the long side, and when he does well reward him with lots of walking on a loose rein. its very hard to stay so collected for any period of time and you have to allow him to stretch often to avoid muscle cramps.

this is how i've been taught by my instructor, take or leave the advice but i have found it to work incredibly well. and while i'm only competing at preliminary level i'm training for elementary with my very talented horse, who has a beautiful muscular bottom thanks to all the hard work my instructor has made me do. every now and then i ask my horse to do walk to canter or canter to halt and she does it without any trouble, although i have quite a way to travel before i'll be doing those in competition. its tiring and it takes a lot of time, but its better to start doing it now than when you get to medium level dressage and your horse can't do any of the collected movements!

[JumpsxGlory]

Wow! Thanks so much you SS and DJ! That will help so much! That was very much needed info! Thanks!

[Synnowe]

Awesome exersises Savannah! I can't wait to try them out! Realy detailed, that's great, thank you so much, maybe I can get Gilli to work a little harder for me