How do I get Timmy to round his back for sliding stop?

Bratmare · 10-14-2009, 07:16 AM

Going back to Timmy not wanting to work in a snaffle.... it sounds like he doesn't respect the bit at all. Even if you were to put a different bit in he would still disrespect it. Have you tried any others besides a plain snaffle?

Gutter_Doll · 10-14-2009, 04:59 PM

The reason people were discussing plates is because the original question was: "--round his back for a sliding stop?" - so they were legit, but a horse that can't stop a decent 1-2ft stop and hold it without plates, shouldn't have plates put on in the first place.

What it sounds like is happening is someone has trained him to stop poorly, either without knowing it or without caring. He's putting his front feet out to brace the stop which jars his back since it hollows out. His neck fly up too?

I'm going to post a few photos to show examples. Pictures are easier to explain.
It probably either looks like one of these photos from the side.

a) Horse is stopping unevenly, hocks are crooked, head flys up, back is in a "U" shape, horses head is evading all bit pressure, rider gets ejected.

b) I'd say the only reason this horse stopped with his hocks under (though not bent or load bearing) was due to sliders. Again, u-shaped back, saddle sits on the horse, front legs brace to stop.

c) Here's a non-reiner stopping WELL. He's using his hindquarter to stop, and it's not abrupt. He's relaxed in the jaw, non evasive, keeping his shoulders up. It's nice.

Now for the extreme sports to show some real form.

Cutting: How a cutting horse holds his stop is all in the hocks for power. Note how both these horses make a smooth, fluid stop and turn, and their saddles are lifted off their spines.

Reiners: A back up is a stop. Note how this horse back up round, hocks absolutely engaged and bent, head non evasive, forehand light and feathery, and stops the same way. Back bent, hocks WELL under him (you can see the athleticism, the hind leg is showing in front of the dirt.)

TimmysMom · 10-14-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bratmare

Going back to Timmy not wanting to work in a snaffle.... it sounds like he doesn't respect the bit at all. Even if you were to put a different bit in he would still disrespect it. Have you tried any others besides a plain snaffle?

After noting he hated the snaffle, I had the vet check his tongue (he has extensive scaring all around it) and the vet said the o-ring might be collapsing right on the nerve damage, causing him a lot of pain. Being a horseman himself, he suggested a short-shanked snaffle.

Timmy responded really well - I was riding him for months in it, until I got this wild hair up my patootie to put him back in the bosal - which he enjoys too. I guess, since i have no plans to do anything more than maybe learn ranch sorting, I can just keep him in either the short shank or the bosal - another poster was right - all I want is a soft landing when I stop him! Like I said before, my seat, cues, reins, and verbal commands are all pretty good, he just likes to slam on the brakes.

Gutter_Doll, said: What it sounds like is happening is someone has trained him to stop poorly, either without knowing it or without caring. He's putting his front feet out to brace the stop which jars his back since it hollows out. His neck fly up too?

Well, since I trained him, I must be the culprit!

That's what's strange, too - he stays collected! Nice break at the poll, like when he backs. When I first started him in the round pen, I worked him at liberty and used body and voice commands. When asking for a whoa, I would make one step towards the shoulder point, and literally WHISPER "whoa." And he slammed on the brakes from day 1. I don't have the round pen anymore, and maybe doing the work ya'll suggested, and a bit more time (he's only been under saddle about 8 months), we'll eventually get on the right page!
Thanks everybody -we're having great weather to ride - "Heeeeere Tiiiiimmy! Here, Timmy, Timmy, Timmy!"

Haas Horse Farm · 10-14-2009, 10:10 PM

How old is Timmy? Is he mature enough for what you are asking him to do? I would say the best bet for further advice would be for you to have someone video him stopping. I guess another question I have is does he have the proper form stopping without a rider? Does he use his back end to turn in the pasture?

TimmysMom · 10-15-2009, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

How old is Timmy? Is he mature enough for what you are asking him to do? I would say the best bet for further advice would be for you to have someone video him stopping. I guess another question I have is does he have the proper form stopping without a rider? Does he use his back end to turn in the pasture?

Timmy turned 6 this year - and as for maturity, he could grow up a bit more. I did some research on the proper technique to train him to stop, and I didn't know this in the beginning - so I'm going back to do some ground work - I asked too much of him too early in his training.
He does use his butt when at liberty or in the pasture, so I know I did something wrong, or skipped a step when I started him under saddle.

back to the old drawing board! Thanks for your help - it's has always been right on.

Haas Horse Farm · 10-15-2009, 08:13 AM

Okay I am so glad I asked. Timmy is certainly old enough. I started to have a heart failure that he was just now two coming three and only had 8 months riding and you were already asking for this. LOL Hugs... glad to know that he is indeed old enough for the drill and that you are asking him for a response that he should be able to give.

I wondered that... if there was something that you were doing that created the issue... that is why I suggested a clinic or a time with a trainer... sometimes one great lesson or a couple days with a pro can do wonders.

Good luck and please do not get frustrated. Remember the two biggest training tools... to me they are the golden code...
1)Always end on a good note.
2)If you and the horse are not clicking that day... do not force things. Throw a halter on the horse and take him for a stroll and let him graze. You can walk or ride. Everyone has an off day... both horse and rider. Give yourselves a break.

Another thing I almost always do even on a broke horse... because I am older... is let them run for a minute under saddle before checking the girth again and climbing on. That has let me know and see problems that might have gotten me hurt.

I am so excited as I think you and Timmy will have a great success once you get your personal idiosyncrasies worked out.

John · 10-15-2009, 03:40 PM

Please note the amount of rein used to get a good stop in GDs Photos.

TimmysMom · 10-16-2009, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haas Horse Farm

Okay I am so glad I asked. Timmy is certainly old enough. I started to have a heart failure that he was just now two coming three and only had 8 months riding and you were already asking for this. LOL Hugs... glad to know that he is indeed old enough for the drill and that you are asking him for a response that he should be able to give.

I wondered that... if there was something that you were doing that created the issue... that is why I suggested a clinic or a time with a trainer... sometimes one great lesson or a couple days with a pro can do wonders. What I did was to train him without using the reins to stop - so that may have been the wrong starting point - like I said before, this is the first horse in 20 years I've trained, and so much has changed - at least I don't bit him up and let him stand for hours!
So now I am using the suggestions someone posted about the walk, pull gently on the reins, then back up.

Good luck and please do not get frustrated. Remember the two biggest training tools... to me they are the golden code...
1)Always end on a good note.
2)If you and the horse are not clicking that day... do not force things. Throw a halter on the horse and take him for a stroll and let him graze. You can walk or ride. Everyone has an off day... both horse and rider. Give yourselves a break.

Another thing I almost always do even on a broke horse... because I am older... is let them run for a minute under saddle before checking the girth again and climbing on. That has let me know and see problems that might have gotten me hurt.

I am so excited as I think you and Timmy will have a great success once you get your personal idiosyncrasies worked out.

I not only try to end on a good note, even if it's only been ten minutes, when he gets it, we're done for the day. I also always walk him around the arena, doing some basic groundwork, and tighten the cinch about three times before getting on him. Otherwise, the saddle would be under his fat belly!
Thank you all for the great tips - as before - back to the old drawing board - I'm sure not in any hurry to mess up a nice little horse!

TimmysMom · 10-16-2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Please note the amount of rein used to get a good stop in GDs Photos.

Oh, I did, and the photos were great!

IIIBarsV · 10-16-2009, 04:14 PM

So... are you trying to get a softer "normal" stop, or a *sliding* stop?

To get a softer normal stop, Timmy's gotta be backed off his forehand and slowed down. Downward transitions are the key to this one, as well as "hot" forward transitions, especially walk-canter.

Downward transitions should be canter-jog, and jog-walk. He needs to build the balance and learn to stay off your hands, and keeping him shifting down while still moving forward has a big advantage than just slamming on the brakes.

When doing upward transitions, he should be pretty "hot off your legs"... you shouldn't have to boot him for ten minutes to get him moving. lol. I've found that riding with a dressage whip to create more energy and "yes mam!" response it highly beneficial.... especially if you're creating a slow, highly-collected jog or canter.

And, as always.... spend a while every ride practicing "whoa" with as little rein as possible, at a walk and jog. If he doesn't stop squarely or tries to keep walking through the whoa, then use your back-up.

Another question: How good is his back up? What cue system do you use for it?

10-14-2009, 07:16 AM	#31
Bratmare Senior Member+ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: I live in the middle of no where. Posts: 908	Going back to Timmy not wanting to work in a snaffle.... it sounds like he doesn't respect the bit at all. Even if you were to put a different bit in he would still disrespect it. Have you tried any others besides a plain snaffle? __________________ I am not suffering from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it. I hit GOLD!!!!! I've been GOBLED!!!! And I can't spell it! In my world everyone is a unicorn, they eat butterflies and poop rainbows.

10-14-2009, 04:59 PM	#32
Gutter_Doll Senior Member+ Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central West, Australia. Posts: 1,431 Images: 36	The reason people were discussing plates is because the original question was: "--round his back for a sliding stop?" - so they were legit, but a horse that can't stop a decent 1-2ft stop and hold it without plates, shouldn't have plates put on in the first place. What it sounds like is happening is someone has trained him to stop poorly, either without knowing it or without caring. He's putting his front feet out to brace the stop which jars his back since it hollows out. His neck fly up too? I'm going to post a few photos to show examples. Pictures are easier to explain. It probably either looks like one of these photos from the side. a) Horse is stopping unevenly, hocks are crooked, head flys up, back is in a "U" shape, horses head is evading all bit pressure, rider gets ejected. b) I'd say the only reason this horse stopped with his hocks under (though not bent or load bearing) was due to sliders. Again, u-shaped back, saddle sits on the horse, front legs brace to stop. c) Here's a non-reiner stopping WELL. He's using his hindquarter to stop, and it's not abrupt. He's relaxed in the jaw, non evasive, keeping his shoulders up. It's nice. Now for the extreme sports to show some real form. Cutting: How a cutting horse holds his stop is all in the hocks for power. Note how both these horses make a smooth, fluid stop and turn, and their saddles are lifted off their spines. Reiners: A back up is a stop. Note how this horse back up round, hocks absolutely engaged and bent, head non evasive, forehand light and feathery, and stops the same way. Back bent, hocks WELL under him (you can see the athleticism, the hind leg is showing in front of the dirt.) __________________ photography new site. "Orana Quest" - tricks (bow, lay down, kneel, smile, sit, count, pick up a saddle pad) and in reining training.

10-16-2009, 04:14 PM	#40
IIIBarsV Senior Member+ Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada Posts: 3,376 Images: 27	So... are you trying to get a softer "normal" stop, or a sliding stop? To get a softer normal stop, Timmy's gotta be backed off his forehand and slowed down. Downward transitions are the key to this one, as well as "hot" forward transitions, especially walk-canter. Downward transitions should be canter-jog, and jog-walk. He needs to build the balance and learn to stay off your hands, and keeping him shifting down while still moving forward has a big advantage than just slamming on the brakes. When doing upward transitions, he should be pretty "hot off your legs"... you shouldn't have to boot him for ten minutes to get him moving. lol. I've found that riding with a dressage whip to create more energy and "yes mam!" response it highly beneficial.... especially if you're creating a slow, highly-collected jog or canter. And, as always.... spend a while every ride practicing "whoa" with as little rein as possible, at a walk and jog. If he doesn't stop squarely or tries to keep walking through the whoa, then use your back-up. Another question: How good is his back up? What cue system do you use for it? __________________ Three Bars The Fifth Jags Fleeting Rocket Wish I'd Get Lucky Chipped In Stone Zip Code Bay B Suns Eternal Flame

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Horse has a perfect sliding stop, but I'm not asking for it!	gypsy84	Horse Training	19	09-24-2009 08:34 PM
Brandi sliding stop - video -	Bernardo	Horse Chat	14	01-01-2009 03:19 PM
Sliding stop	Care To Jazz?	Horse Training	21	11-25-2007 08:09 PM
sliding to a stop	D-ring92	Horse Training	8	07-21-2005 02:46 PM
sliding stop problem	smokin destiny	Horse Training	10	10-19-2003 07:32 AM

10-15-2009, 03:40 PM	#37
John Senior Member+ Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 3,747 Images: 60	Please note the amount of rein used to get a good stop in GDs Photos.