[MuckMuck]

Rounding for the stop is almost a natural movement "IF" the horse has been allowed to lower his head during work.
A lot of folks get into the habit of creating the WHOA with the bit and wind up holding the reins through the stop or even for a moment too long.
This can even be a subconscious reaction from the rider and this is where coaching comes in.

I condition all my horses for the stop with slow,quiet walks down hills.
They learn to round up and lower their head and neck.
They learn to dig the rear end in and control their speed.

If you look at most of the really good sliding stops the reins are loose and the riders hand is on or near the neck in front of the horn.
Doubling really helps also as well as many of the other things mentioned.

The cue and the release are very important.

[spinandslide]

TM-
Lack of plates and hard footing are going to make if difficult for your horse to "slide" in his stop. good footing for sliding stops is soft loose dirt(about 2 inches or so) with a firm base. the loose footing allows the horse to "break ground" and the base gives him the "stopping" point..with no base, the horse gets bogged down. with no loose footing, theres no resistance.

Now, Mclean talked about doubling, you do it INTO the fence, as this forces the horse to rock back on his hind and use his backs and hocks and lift his front end to get around.

Mclean was also right in using the proper cues..sit deep, take your leg off the horse and say WHOA..he doesnt stop, you use the reins. the goal is to accomplish the stop with simply a change in your seat and the word WHOA.

I would put him in the snafflefor all this work, personaly.

Sarah

[lvmypnt]

Every time you stop him back him up. Doing this repeatedly will get him to start using his butt to stop because he will be anticipating you asking him to back up.

Hope this makes since.

[TimmysMom]

Originally Posted by MuckMuck

Rounding for the stop is almost a natural movement "IF" the horse has been allowed to lower his head during work.
A lot of folks get into the habit of creating the WHOA with the bit and wind up holding the reins through the stop or even for a moment too long.
This can even be a subconscious reaction from the rider and this is where coaching comes in. I actually trained him by seat and voice only (I rode bridleless for years) - I rarely use my reins as he moves off my legs nicely. He stops dead at whoa, and I ride with such loose reins, I never have to pull on them. He does drop his head when stopped, but a change a gait, he'll bring it up a bit to speed up, then I collect him to slow, usuing my legs to propell, and my reins to collect - but SUPER lightly.

I condition all my horses for the stop with slow,quiet walks down hills.
They learn to round up and lower their head and neck.
They learn to dig the rear end in and control their speed. That's a good idea - I do trot him up hill to build up his muscles, and he walks down hills like he's passed out! maybe more downhill than up hill - wonder how'd I do that? LOL

If you look at most of the really good sliding stops the reins are loose and the riders hand is on or near the neck in front of the horn. That's how I stop him now at every gait but a walk, but he just plants after I sit down, sigh and ask for a stop. I'm sure I have a concussion!
Doubling really helps also as well as many of the other things mentioned.

The cue and the release are very important.

Thank you so much for all this great info!

[TimmysMom]

Originally Posted by spinandslide

TM-
Lack of plates and hard footing are going to make if difficult for your horse to "slide" in his stop. good footing for sliding stops is soft loose dirt(about 2 inches or so) with a firm base. the loose footing allows the horse to "break ground" and the base gives him the "stopping" point..with no base, the horse gets bogged down. with no loose footing, theres no resistance.

Now, Mclean talked about doubling, you do it INTO the fence, as this forces the horse to rock back on his hind and use his backs and hocks and lift his front end to get around.

Mclean was also right in using the proper cues..sit deep, take your leg off the horse and say WHOA..he doesnt stop, you use the reins. the goal is to accomplish the stop with simply a change in your seat and the word WHOA.

I would put him in the snafflefor all this work, personaly.

Sarah

I don't want him to slide so much as to stop planting his legs. Sliding is way down the road - I guess I didn't word this correctly. As for stopping, as I said, I can actually whisper whoa after sitting deep, no leg on him and a loose rein. He just won't use his butt.

I do make him back everytime I stop him - sometimes, I even make him circle the entire arena in a back - he's gotten to dropping his head, and waiting to hear "back." I have to say, in every other instance, he is wonderful - considering eight months ago, he wouldn't even tie!

I'm going to try doubling back today and put him back in his snaffle!
Ya'll are great and I've learned SO much from your tips and explanations!

[McLean86]

Is there anyway you could post video for us? It sounds like you are on the right track with your cues and soft hands. Locking up his front legs for the stop is a common problem, no worries

doubling- start out at the trot fairly close to the fence.
sit down, loosen your outside rein, pull the inside rein toward the hip, but only as hard as needed to complete the turn, don't overdue it
after turning 180 into the fence break into the trot again, repeat
to get impulsion use the outside leg behind the girth, spurring should be unnecessary
distance from the fence? every trainer has a different ideal.

[deann28]

Do NOT pull the reins! (sounds like you are aware of that, but make sure that you actually aren't) Take contact and hold it while you sit deep, heels down, and chin up, exhale, stay calm, and deep low long WHOOOOOOOOAAA. Think about looking at your hat brim the whole time - do not look at where you plan to stop or you will clue your horse and it will lose the impulsion necessary to stop under itself - sort of anticipatory leaving you with a dashboard stop. Also the stop needs to be timed correctly - you want to ask for it just as your horse is gathering up for another stride forward and push him into your hands. If he tries to run through it or get dashboard-y ish then you need to continue to hold him into the stop and spur him forward into your hands just a bit. You don't have to be aggressive but you do need to firmly send him forward into your hands. Also I like to the work on the upward transitions - clean upward helps with the clean downward transitions...stopping is a downward transition - you mentioned he raised his head going upward which would indicate to me that he is having problems getting under himself anyhow. That head raising is him trying to get up and over his front end where he is heavy. I likely say that the footing is a big hinderance to him as he don't feel secure if it is that hard he is likely worried about slipping and doen't have enough grip/cushion to feel secure and as such he has quit stopping for you. Sometimes a horse that was stopping good can be worked until they no longer stop - their confidence is rattled by poor footing, plates that were too wide for a youngster, etc. Too slick, too hard, too deep, too sticky, these are all footing issues that wreak havoc on stopping. If they don't feel secure they won't do it. Would you? Remember they are balancing us on thier backs while we ask them to do some pretty amazing stuff. Also as for the bosal/snaffle issue....I feel that some horses are better in a snaffle and some better in a bosal...some horses just never really take to the bosal and get real responsive there, some are tougher acts, and some are instantly soft in the bosal. My question to you is ---remember what was he like when you started in the snaffle? Hard? Stiff? Are you seeing some of that return? If so then he could just be on the learning curve for the bosal.........One thing I would do is make sure that your horse doesn't figure out that he can run through the bosal. so I would continue with that softening and slow work in the bosal until he is consistently responsive to it or return completely to the snaffle. (My personal choice would be going back to the snaffle but that is MY personal preference - I show very very little in a bosal)

[John]

Originally Posted by spinandslide

TM-
Lack of plates and hard footing are going to make if difficult for your horse to "slide" in his stop. good footing for sliding stops is soft loose dirt(about 2 inches or so) with a firm base. the loose footing allows the horse to "break ground" and the base gives him the "stopping" point..with no base, the horse gets bogged down. with no loose footing, theres no resistance.

Now, Mclean talked about doubling, you do it INTO the fence, as this forces the horse to rock back on his hind and use his backs and hocks and lift his front end to get around.

Mclean was also right in using the proper cues..sit deep, take your leg off the horse and say WHOA..he doesnt stop, you use the reins. the goal is to accomplish the stop with simply a change in your seat and the word WHOA.

I would put him in the snafflefor all this work, personaly.

Sarah

Start with the stop WITHOUT REINS first and going slow. Then as you pick up the speed use what is in the above post (with a set of plates.)

[TimmysMom]

Originally Posted by McLean86

Is there anyway you could post video for us? It sounds like you are on the right track with your cues and soft hands. Locking up his front legs for the stop is a common problem, no worries

doubling- start out at the trot fairly close to the fence.
sit down, loosen your outside rein, pull the inside rein toward the hip, but only as hard as needed to complete the turn, don't overdue it
after turning 180 into the fence break into the trot again, repeat
to get impulsion use the outside leg behind the girth, spurring should be unnecessary
distance from the fence? every trainer has a different ideal.

That is exactly waht we did today. He has the rollback down, but got confused at first by turning into the fence. I can actually "roll" him around my leg, so a light rein is no problem.
I did work him at liberty on it before i rode him, and by golly, his butt IS under him! If locking up his front legs is common, what do you think I should do? Just get this nailed and then make him "walk" in front?

[TimmysMom]

Originally Posted by deann28

Do NOT pull the reins! (sounds like you are aware of that, but make sure that you actually aren't) I actually use my reins very little - I taught all my horses to ride bridleless, so using reins is odd to me! But I have great hands - hardly move, very quiet and very gentle - until needed. Take contact and hold it while you sit deep, heels down, and chin up, exhale, stay calm, and deep low long WHOOOOOOOOAAA. Think about looking at your hat brim the whole time - do not look at where you plan to stop or you will clue your horse and it will lose the impulsion necessary to stop under itself - sort of anticipatory leaving you with a dashboard stop. I am doing all of that - in that order and in that manner - Also the stop needs to be timed correctly - you want to ask for it just as your horse is gathering up for another stride forward and push him into your hands. If he tries to run through it or get dashboard-y ish then you need to continue to hold him into the stop and spur him forward into your hands just a bit. You don't have to be aggressive but you do need to firmly send him forward into your hands. That actually happened today - he was getting a bit fast and when I cued him for a stop, he got naughty - so I pulled him up and spurred him forward - he repsonded pretty quickly after he figured out what he'd done. Also I like to the work on the upward transitions - clean upward helps with the clean downward transitions...stopping is a downward transition - you mentioned he raised his head going upward which would indicate to me that he is having problems getting under himself anyhow. That head raising is him trying to get up and over his front end where he is heavy. I likely say that the footing is a big hinderance to him as he don't feel secure if it is that hard he is likely worried about slipping and doen't have enough grip/cushion to feel secure and as such he has quit stopping for you. Sometimes a horse that was stopping good can be worked until they no longer stop - their confidence is rattled by poor footing, plates that were too wide for a youngster, etc. Too slick, too hard, too deep, too sticky, these are all footing issues that wreak havoc on stopping. If they don't feel secure they won't do it. Would you? He did take a really bad slip and fall months ago in the round pen, and still has trouble on one side of the arena - shortcuts it if I'm not paying attention. So that makes sense, but getting new footing would be like asking my boss for a new Mercedes!!! LOL Remember they are balancing us on thier backs while we ask them to do some pretty amazing stuff. Also as for the bosal/snaffle issue....I feel that some horses are better in a snaffle and some better in a bosal...some horses just never really take to the bosal and get real responsive there, some are tougher acts, and some are instantly soft in the bosal. My question to you is ---remember what was he like when you started in the snaffle? HE STANK! Never closed his mouth, bobbed his head up and down, and never got soft. That's when I put him in the bosal, and because he knew to move off my leg and seat, plus voice commands, he blossmed! Back in the snaffle for one day and he's a runaway. Hard? Stiff? Are you seeing some of that return? If so then he could just be on the learning curve for the bosal.........One thing I would do is make sure that your horse doesn't figure out that he can run through the bosal. Oh, he already did, but his punishment fit the crime - once my concussion healed - seriously. He doesn't do it at all anymore. so I would continue with that softening and slow work in the bosal until he is consistently responsive to it or return completely to the snaffle. I think, considering the round his tongue scar, I may just keep him in a bosal - it isn't like I'm going to be showing him - his scar is why I moved him into the bosal in the first place - it's all the way around his tongue, and about 1/4" deep in most place - my vet said he probably did have nerve damage from the looks of it. (My personal choice would be going back to the snaffle but that is MY personal preference - I show very very little in a bosal)

It's weird - all I ever showed or paraded with were Garcia bits and I was trained in the Spade as well. Which, honestly, is why my hands are good and quiet. Just had to toot my own horn - but it's a LOT of what you guys have taught me - though I did always have good hands - my mom placed a bit in my mouth when I first got my horse, and she pulled back on it (gently) and said, "Always remember, a soft hand feels better than a heavy hand." What a great lesson for an 8 year old!