[cowgirl21]

Originally Posted by Little Red Dun

They are getting money because its a fad, just like "Puggles" and "Labradoodles". Just because you can get the money for a cross doesn't make right or responsible in my opinion because if the horse is mediocre and out of mediocre parents, then you aren't helping the cross, the breed, or the horse itself.

Am I saying any cross is worthless? One hundred percent NO! There are some outstanding examples of crosses in the world, but honestly a lot of them are "flukes" and good luck. If they all were really that exceptional, why don't you see more of them out there at higher levels? Why were they not bred before instead of just in the last few years?

My own breed of choice is Kiger Mustangs. They are wonderful horses in my opinion, but they are not being bred to take the place of Quarter Horses or Trakehners or anything else. They are being bred and preserved because of their unique heritage and because they are good, versatile horses. While we might have exceptional ones here and there, rarely do you see the Kiger as promoted as being "just like a [insert breed] but even better!". I would never tell someone "don't buy a Quarter Horse for reining, buy a Kiger, they are better at it" or "Buy a Kiger instead of an Andalusian, they are just as "Spanish" but better!". Of course not. Kigers are not a specialized breed, they aren't supposed to be able to beat a Quarter Horse in reining or an Andalusian in high level dressage. Will you see a few out there that might? Maybe, probably. But I know that's not what my breed is about. I guess its hard to explain the appeal of Kigers, but to me they are something special and worth preserving simply for their combination of uniqueness, versatility, and intelligence, but that doesn't mean I would try and sell one for $10,000 JUST because it was a Kiger.

And in defense, the Thoroughbred/Draft cross HAS been around for a very long time. If you cross the right Draft mare with the right Thoroughbred, yes you can get something outstanding. I would never argue that; its been proven many times and at high levels (some top competition horses were Thoroughbred crosses). And yes, some of these crosses have been around since forever and are proven to be exceptional.

My "beef" is with these people taking low-quality individuals of any breed and tossing them together to promote the crosses as "[insert new, fancy name here]" for more than a high-quality horse with training and proven bloodlines is priced at. Again, just because you can get that much money for the horse doesn't make it responsible or ethical in my opinion. I'm sure I could get a cheap Pug and a cheap Beagle and cross them, and sell the puppies for $500 a piece. Would it be a good thing for me to do, just because I can?

Excellent post.

[Little Red Dun]

Originally Posted by harli36

We agree on this then. Anytime I see people who breed for pretty much any reason other then to produce an outstanding individual I'm against it. Where I think we differ is I think most people are trying to get a quality horse and you see most of them as being "puppy mill" types.

Hehe, you might be right and I may just have had the bad luck to find the wrong breeders in my Internet roaming. Could you post (or PM if you prefer) some breeders of quality crossbreds (Friesian or otherwise)? Honestly, I'd like to see some good ones; a good horse is a good horse no matter his/her pedigree.

[Arco]

I don't see the 'name-tags' for cross breeds as anything other than a bit of fun (horses or dogs), I really don't believe people pay the huge amounts that they do because they have a 'fancy' name slapped on them, I think they pay the money because they happen to like the cross (for whatever their personal reason).

Take Smartie for instance (although the name-tag bit doesn't apply, the cross breeding and price tag does). Her dam is a registered pure bred New Forest, her sire is a registered part bred Welsh section D (half welsh, half coloured cob). She was bred primarily for temperament with type and size a very close second, her colour being an added bonus. I fell in love with her temperament and personality and paid silly money for what she is on paper (her breeder, my BO, is reknowned for charging way over the odds for her horses, but she always gets her asking prices). IMO Smartie is pretty and does well at local shows, but there's no way in a million years that she would ever take anyone to top shows - she's not got the breeding for that. BUT... I can take her to a little show, have a fun day out and bring home ribbons. I can jump on and have a controlled but forward going and enthusiastic ride. I can put my children with her and they can practise horse care, schooling and jumping safe in the knowledge that she won't buck, rear, bolt, bite or kick. I can leave her unridden for 6 weeks (I can't ride her in the school holidays when I have 3 children with me 24/7) and then get back on and go as if she'd been ridden the day before. Yes I paid more for her than I would have for a registered purebred of a fair few competitive breeds, but to me she is worth more than all of them put together. She totally fulfills what I need and want in a horse at this stage of my life, none of the purebreeds would suit my needs right now. Some people would have scoffed at the idea of breeding that mare and that stallion together because of lack of competition successes in their bloodlines, but I'm so grateful it went ahead because I could have paid twice the money and not been able to find such a wonderful horse.

[cowgirl21]

Originally Posted by Arco

I don't see the 'name-tags' for cross breeds as anything other than a bit of fun (horses or dogs), I really don't believe people pay the huge amounts that they do because they have a 'fancy' name slapped on them, I think they pay the money because they happen to like the cross (for whatever their personal reason).

Take Smartie for instance (although the name-tag bit doesn't apply, the cross breeding and price tag does). Her dam is a registered pure bred New Forest, her sire is a registered part bred Welsh section D (half welsh, half coloured cob). She was bred primarily for temperament with type and size a very close second, her colour being an added bonus. I fell in love with her temperament and personality and paid silly money for what she is on paper (her breeder, my BO, is reknowned for charging way over the odds for her horses, but she always gets her asking prices). IMO Smartie is pretty and does well at local shows, but there's no way in a million years that she would ever take anyone to top shows - she's not got the breeding for that. BUT... I can take her to a little show, have a fun day out and bring home ribbons. I can jump on and have a controlled but forward going and enthusiastic ride. I can put my children with her and they can practise horse care, schooling and jumping safe in the knowledge that she won't buck, rear, bolt, bite or kick. I can leave her unridden for 6 weeks (I can't ride her in the school holidays when I have 3 children with me 24/7) and then get back on and go as if she'd been ridden the day before. Yes I paid more for her than I would have for a registered purebred of a fair few competitive breeds, but to me she is worth more than all of them put together. She totally fulfills what I need and want in a horse at this stage of my life, none of the purebreeds would suit my needs right now. Some people would have scoffed at the idea of breeding that mare and that stallion together because of lack of competition successes in their bloodlines, but I'm so grateful it went ahead because I could have paid twice the money and not been able to find such a wonderful horse.

How do u know that?

[Vix]

Originally Posted by Little Red Dun

Hehe, you might be right and I may just have had the bad luck to find the wrong breeders in my Internet roaming. Could you post (or PM if you prefer) some breeders of quality crossbreds (Friesian or otherwise)? Honestly, I'd like to see some good ones; a good horse is a good horse no matter his/her pedigree.

I had a look for you for some good producers of sport horses, not all Friesian but it gives an idea of some good offspring from the crosses.

SportHorseCanada.com ~ Index

FLYING W FARMS - HORSES FOR SALE

Just a reminder that neither of those are for critique in any fashion, just as references that there are good producers of draft and Friesian crosses out there.

[tightpaycheck]

I breed registered Paints because I love the breed. If it suddenly became popular and wildly profitable to cross Paints with Apps I would still breed Paints. But I would probably pick up a few app mares too and make some money. Any horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay, and if someone else wants to give me $6000 for an amish bred grade draft cross that I picked up at an auction for $200 then I would be silly not to take the money. I wouldn't breed them myself, but only because it is much cheaper to buy them as yearlings and 2yos.
Even for the breeders that are crossing any old horses together and hoping for draft or friesian or andalusian crosses..they are making money. They are breeding horses that are sound and sane, maybe not the prettiest or most athletic, but people want them. You don't see many friesian crosses going for slaughter because people want them and want to pay top dollar for them. I don't blame them for cashing in, and maybe one day there will be a surplus, but I think it will be a while.

[Arco]

Originally Posted by cowgirl21

How do u know that?

Because the purebreeds round here that are of a lower price range than Smartie are either hot headed, too big for my children to be able to give adequate aids to, need more work than I have time for or are too small for me. I knew Smartie's dam and sire, knew her before I bought her and knew she was the perfect 'fit' all round for my situation.

[cowgirl21]

Originally Posted by Arco

Because the purebreeds round here that are of a lower price range than Smartie are either hot headed, too big for my children to be able to give adequate aids to, need more work than I have time for or are too small for me. I knew Smartie's dam and sire, knew her before I bought her and knew she was the perfect 'fit' all round for my situation.

Ok just wondering...

[Arco]

Originally Posted by cowgirl21

Ok just wondering...

I do sometimes look in the horse classifieds (not looking to buy, just find them interesting) and think "my gosh, for the same or less money I could have bought that, or that or that...". Then I realise "yeah, and I'd have ended up having to sell it because of that, that and that".

When the kids are older and I have more free time on my hands, I do plan to buy a pure breed, probably a Friesian, and do some serious training and competing. By then I'll have put Smartie through enough small-comp stuff that she'll make a perfect teenagers competition pony for my daughter (who is 8 at the moment). That's if I'm earning enough to keep 2 horses by then....

[cowgirl21]

Originally Posted by Arco

I do sometimes look in the horse classifieds (not looking to buy, just find them interesting) and think "my gosh, for the same or less money I could have bought that, or that or that...". Then I realise "yeah, and I'd have ended up having to sell it because of that, that and that".

When the kids are older and I have more free time on my hands, I do plan to buy a pure breed, probably a Friesian, and do some serious training and competing. By then I'll have put Smartie through enough small-comp stuff that she'll make a perfect teenagers competition pony for my daughter (who is 8 at the moment). That's if I'm earning enough to keep 2 horses by then....

Ya i understand...i kind of got offended there because i thought you had something against purbreds...but now i see your point of view