[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by kizmet

ok BW but my point was that the thread had a sarcastic and no it all under tone! ...

I'm pretty sure you mean a KNOW it all not NO it all tone (darn typo's I do them all the time! brain is faster then fingers).. BUT that would explain the sarcastic tone some members where using to answer the thread from the get go! They were feeding off of what they perceived to be a sarcastic attitude (although where those member came up with that, is truly a mystery to myself)...

Oh and FWIW, if I had read that Cindy had NOT tried every thing she coudl think of before trying this method, I would have been one of the FIRST to suggest to her that she should have tried Methods A-Z, but because I read in her first explanation of the situation, I was able to see that many, many other methods had been tried for a full year.... THNE I think to myself, WELL #1, man she's more patient then me because I'd have given up after 6 ms and #2, if she had a full year to try things, I doubt I personally have any 'new' method I could suggest, so for this case, her choice seems like a reasonable one when trying to create a safe HAPPY horse because a horse that freaks out that bad with any pressure at all applied to a lead rope or reins from the ground, will NOT result in a HAPPY horse and ultimately that is what is most important a horse who can feel safe and happy in their job.

[kizmet]

Originally Posted by Blistering Winds

Huh??? See your idea would not hold up in my line of work by far.




You can disagree. YES> However to be down right " that should NOT be done..."

Should have an answer afterwards.


IF this had been the first shot that cindy did...as several people I use to know use to do with pick-ups and horses ...probably to this day....

I would have gone....Ummm....I TOTALLY Disagree. Have you tried this? That? If not, I highly advise you to do so.



But rarely, if ever, will you find a disagreement from myself without something to "PROVE WHY" I disagree.

You can't disagree on something unless you know and can PROVE there is something better.

(and with this horse, something better that hasnt' already been tried)

by multiple people from different walks of life.

I can say the sky is FUsha. You can disagree. But your words are WORTHLESS without proof.

Im sorry BW i dont beleive we can put rules on peoples opinions! If they say that shouldnt be done then so be it! we should just respect there opinion no one is saying we have to listen to it just respect it!

[littlecelticpony]

People without experience should not be making remarks like this because you have NOTHING to back it up with. IF I suggest something I can give you the name of the horse and the way in which I CORRECTED the problem. Sorry I am really coming down on you but I am fed up with "keyboard" trainers telling those of us who have been in the trenches dealing with (FLESH and BLOOD) LIVE horses who do respond to our methods that we are not doing the right thing.

Now, I'm still back on page 14, but I wanted this re-quoted.

TOO TRUE, TOO TRUE, HHF!

Until you've worked with a horse who's turned a nose up at the "normal" training methods in your little handbooks and manuals, you really don't know what it's like to get down in the dirt and creative.

How on EARTH can you knock it if you haven't tried it? You CANT.

[JumpingBean]

Originally Posted by kizmet

i dont beleive we can put rules on peoples opinions!

If there are no rules about opinions, then what's all this on the past 12 pages about how everyone should respect them?

[doublebarr]

K- it condemned no one. Here is the entire thing and possibly the part you missed right after it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazychickmia
I'm replying to the original post. Had a flick through the rest of this thread and decided I don't want anything to do with this discussion, but still want to comment on one thing from the original post

First of all, my first throughts on the wagon, were that the team and driver appear casual, while the horse tied to the rear appears, well the best word I can think of is 'stubbon' (as opposed to truely panicking/in pain). However of course it's hard to tell from still photos because you don't know what's happening between shots, and you know what they say about 'assume' I'd guess however it's something to do with getting the horse to move forward without hanging back and fighting like it currently seems to be doing...?

As for tying up with the reins. I have no doubt there are plenty of horses, some of my own included, who could safely tie up on their reins. However because of a bad personal expierence with bit/horse mouth/caught on fence/broken bridle/tounge almost ripped out/horse almost put down, it's not a risk I would personally ever take, unless I trusted the horse 100%...and horses are animals, I've always been taught to trust them only up to 95%

While flipping, I did catch something about horses being trained to 'only shy within their boundaries' while tied up. If I could be bothered searching through so many pages of bitterness, I'd find it again and ask a question...but hopefully whichever member (doublebarr?) it was will read this and answer me

How do you first of all train them to shy within the length of rope? Do you tie them up from the outset by the reins, or only progress to this when you feel they understand not to jump out of their skin?

I ask because I have a horse at the moment who used to freak out at any pressue on his head - not fun tying up, he wouldn't even shy, just move, feel pressure and flip out. Much better now, put pressure on the halter and he drops his head to it. However at this stage, if something spooked him I feel he would 'revert', which is when rein trying, solid tying etc might turn a little hairy!

Also, can I have your paint and appy doublebarr?

Hmmmmm, after reading the highlighted parts, I'm still trying to figure out how to answer you without saying what I think about all this. Think I'll just pass this one on by. If you want the answers to your questions, you will have to go back and read. Don't feel like typing it twice because someone's "feelings" got in the way. I've learned more thought rough old men who don't give a dang about feelings, they care more about if your listening and paying attention. And they had knowledge worth knowing.

And this was post # 211 where I realized I hadn't completely answered her questions, even thought SHE couldn't be bothered to look for the answers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazychickmia
.but hopefully whichever member (doublebarr?) it was will read this and answer me

How do you first of all train them to shy within the length of rope? Do you tie them up from the outset by the reins, or only progress to this when you feel they understand not to jump out of their skin?

I ask because I have a horse at the moment who used to freak out at any pressue on his head - not fun tying up, he wouldn't even shy, just move, feel pressure and flip out. Much better now, put pressure on the halter and he drops his head to it. However at this stage, if something spooked him I feel he would 'revert', which is when rein trying, solid tying etc might turn a little hairy!

Also, can I have your paint and appy doublebarr?

Man, I wasn't going to answer, but I put MY feelings aside and realized that this part wasn't answered beyond my saying Training.

We do trust these horses 99.999999% to stay tied with their reins because of training (and because they are too pooped to move by the time we get down and tie them up, LOL).

With our home bred or home raised foals, it is never an issue to tie this way once they start bridle training. Why? Because they have already got a rock solid foundation in giving to pressure and understanding that being tied means you only have so much room to move before the pressure starts. As babies, they are lead by hand and held by hand and worked with pressure and release. As 2 month olds on up, they start getting "tied up training" and learn pressure and release with a handler at their side moving a little farther away each time for longer each time. So, by the time they are 3 & 4 and seriously saddle training, they already have 3 years of expeience standing tied and what it all means. They have already learned that they cannot get loose when tied and respect it.

With a older "bought" horse, it may take much longer if at all. However, putting in a full days work on cattle makes them much more receptive to standing in place on the fence with others without even being tied. When I "start" tying these horses with their reins, they are only looped around the fence. If they happen to pull back, nothing stops them. But, if they pull back, it's lesson time with a rope halter and fence. Once they again respect boundries of "mentally being tied" they can be trusted to be tied to the fence. Do they need to physically be tied? Not usually, but it keeps them from trying to snatch a bite of grass because they have no "pressure point" left loose.

For a horse that comes in with "tying" or pressure issues, standing tied with the reins is usually not an option for them until they are with us for years. In this case, it is not a quickly progressive thing, but a long term progressive issue. Until they can go for a full season without ever pulling back when tied, they will get a rope halter at rest. Once their "mind" has been conditioned and they are solid, then I would be comfortable using the reins looped. If they handle that without issue for many, many months, then the tie goes into effect just so I don't end up chasing them down in case they learn to pull back only enough to slip the reins from the fence.

Some horses NEVER make it to that point. Some horses cannot ever get past the pulling issue and the only safe alternative is a rope halter at all times when tied. However, those are the ones I usually sell on to "small" homes where they never need to be tied quickly to get down and do a chore. They are safe as long as they KNOW they are tied with an unbreakable halter, but not reliable when they KNOW they are not.
__________________
CFO of FF (also BFF of RRB ) Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrell - people who put "my kid is an honor student" on their car do it to say, "your kid is a total loser",

So I'm having a hard time seeing where what you said about me attacking others before you is in fact, truth.

[Blistering Winds]

then say you disagree and run. Dont sit here and judge without anything to back up your basis for judging.



which is probably what I should have said in my last post.

Kelly at least was able to say....I'd retire the horse.

That is her answer before ever using that method. Wel, that is something Cindy didn't try.

Don't argue with a person because you don't LIKE the method without bringing up an alternative. Because it solves nothing.

And makes the "disagreement" a total waste of time on both parts.

That is how I see it, and why most of my explanations end up being lecture/book like. Because I have respect to others, when I disagree with something, I say why...what I would do, and has it been tried yet. If it has...I come up with something else. If I can't come up with something else....then I have to make a decision...is it truely CRUEL? Look at it from all sides....

if it is down right cruel. ......like tying a mustang's feet to a rail road tie when the trainer got bucked off one too many times. .....I will state why it is cruel and wash my hands of that person forever.

if it isn't cruel, but something that shouldn't be used in a normal case, I file it away under "EXTREME MEASURES" and move on.

[littlecelticpony]

I treat my dogs like the alpha dog woudl treat them, except I refuse to bite them (yuck fur in your mouth ICK!) so instead grab them with my hands on either side of their cheek and give a strong shake... It's actually MUCH less harmful then how the alpha dog grabs them with their teeth and shakes them, leaving holes in their hides.

Jeez, Karyn. I DO bite. Hahahahah!

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by JumpingBean

If there are no rules about opinions, then what's all this on the past 12 pages about how everyone should respect them?

ROTFLMAO....... Now that is one of the best things I have read in pages around here Then again opinions are like Bottoms, everyone has one, and many of them stink some of the time

[kizmet]

Originally Posted by wyldterv

I'm pretty sure you mean a KNOW it all not NO it all tone (darn typo's I do them all the time! brain is faster then fingers).. BUT that would explain the sarcastic tone some members where using to answer the thread from the get go! They were feeding off of what they perceived to be a sarcastic attitude (although where those member came up with that, is truly a mystery to myself)...

Oh and FWIW, if I had read that Cindy had NOT tried every thing she coudl think of before trying this method, I would have been one of the FIRST to suggest to her that she should have tried Methods A-Z, but because I read in her first explanation of the situation, I was able to see that many, many other methods had been tried for a full year.... THNE I think to myself, WELL #1, man she's more patient then me because I'd have given up after 6 ms and #2, if she had a full year to try things, I doubt I personally have any 'new' method I could suggest, so for this case, her choice seems like a reasonable one when trying to create a safe HAPPY horse because a horse that freaks out that bad with any pressure at all applied to a lead rope or reins from the ground, will NOT result in a HAPPY horse and ultimately that is what is most important a horse who can feel safe and happy in their job.

yes a know it all tone!!!!

The truth is this has went on for long enough! I really dont care anymore i think we should just get off each others backs put the claws away and get on with helping each other out! after all i have spent the past four days on this thread defending every single post i have written. Im getting alitte tired so my advice lets break for a saucer of milk and a declawing!

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by littlecelticpony

Jeez, Karyn. I DO bite. Hahahahah!

Yuck then you get dog hair in your mouth, blech...

OK done for now with my 'break' time to go back to room reorganization ,sigh... I have an opionion on that too, and it's not a nice one