[kizmet]

Originally Posted by Blistering Winds

What difference does it make if the cart is moving or not?

Tying to a wall, fence, ANYTHING is down right dangerous. A horse can rear up, fall down, get hurt, break legs, break necks, get caught up in the rope, the fence, things aroudn it, things that aren't CLOSE (or so you thought).....


That's IT> It is cruel to tie a horse to ANYTHING

EVERYONE must ground tie WITHOUT a lead/rein. Because the dangers to ground tie with a danglin rope are just as bad.

The cart moving adds in the risk of excess pressure, the horse being draged along behind, the risk of all horses involved ending up in one big tangled mess!

[Blistering Winds]

read my last post about change of gravity on the horse.

Pressure would change, due to the fact of the opposite force being "Stronger"

Due to the way "living things" apply force....their force would not fit into the standard physic's equation.

cart moving would "CHANGE" risk. Not make it any more or less risky than the stand still risk.

Risk is still there. How you "rate" the risk....does.

For example. Horse is at a stand still. Sitting back.

Rope can break. Horse falls back, breaks something

Horse can pull muscles out of wack.


Cart moving

rope can break. The horse will fall "DIFFERENTLY than if he was pulling back on a stationary object. Especially when being pulled, as the force of the cart would not be "equal" at all times.

Does what can happen change? Not really. Either way....the hrose can fall in several ways regardless, and hurt himself.


Horse strain muscles. Again...stationary object....or moving. When the horse is being forcefully moved, again, the force being applied is not always equal on all parts at all times. So while a muscle begins to strain on the left, it may shift just enough to release that muscle and strain the muscle on the right. Instead of straining them ALL at once....

Risk of Muscle strain is still there.


Horse can rear and catch his leg on a stationary object.

Object moving....that risk is actually REMOVED. Horse can't rear very well when being moved against his will.

So just looking at these 3 main risks....moving object is actually more desirable, because it takes the "rearing" issue out of the picture.

Horse pulling back on an inanimate object can still rip his legs, hocks, etc to shreds....not much different than a moving object. Where MOST horses will actually MOVE their legs when being forced to move. (Most...not sure if this horse took a step at all....but this horse is not MOST horses either)

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl

Hmmm I'll say it again.....I didn't have a problem with the method....I even gave an alternative for what I would do because *I* would not have done it myself.
The point of the thread was NOT missed by me anyway. I know what she was doing. And I knew about that horse from a thread a while back, so I already knew what was going on. What my problem was,,,,she asked what people thought about it, even AFTER the facts were laid out, but yet, because those facts didn't change people's opinions...lifestyles, personal matters, etc were brought in to try to make the 'disagreers' appear stupid for even saying anything. So you know what.....the 'other side' went about it poorly too Cindy.

People could give examples of other options all day but it wouldn't matter because you've done what you've done and you feel that was the right thing to do (which maybe it was for you). But when you ask what people would have done, be ready for answers differing from yours.

You know K, because I wondered if I had done this without realizing it, I went back and looked over the ENTIRE thread. Well this is the very FIRST place I asked someone else what THEY would do.

Originally Posted by doublebarr

Which would then lead to the question, if someone doesn't agree, and had gotten to the EXACT same place I was with her, would the better option be sending her on to slaughter, rather than trying this last ditch option?

If you don't agree that this method should have ever been used, then what would you have done? Give me something that YOU would have done. I can tell you if I tried it because to list everything we did would take a book. When you run out of options, finding out that we tried it (notice the we, I didn't stop with just me, but went looking for someone else in case it was me and not her ) and it didn't work, would the better option have been sending her on to slaughter then or would it be in the mares best interest to try one final, but extreme, option?



Karyn answered this very well below. The aim of this thread was to make people ask first. However, it then could lead to why, which might lead a deeper understanding of the reason why. Which just might give someone else facing similar problems new tools to work with before going to this option. If they haven't already tried everything under the sun.






You have no idea how badly I wanted to find her "original" owners and get in their head about her Becasue she wasn't papered and the stock contractor got her from a 4th party, we have no clue who they were. She was attemped to be used for a bareback bronc because of her halter/lead issue you couldn't pull on her head or she flung herself backward. I really thought I'd never be able to ride her, but through very delicate work in the beginning, found that mounted, she had NO issues with pressure from the halter, sidepull on up to the bridle She had a very nice whoa by the end of the year and NEVER went backwards under saddle. She would explode once in a while when you were riding her, no rhyme or reason when, just boom and there it was. BUT, the moment you got on the ground and put any pressure on her head at all, she was gone. I didn't feel nearly as bad when MUCH smarter horsemen than I couldn't wrap their minds around it either. I know something happened, just have no clue what

And guess what the very next post was? It was yours and it was this:

Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl

Cindy, you owned this horse? or were just training? (can't remember)
Another option *I* would think of when she got to the point before the cart....would be to turn her out to pasture and live her life out. This results in no 'abusive/dangerous/outside experience' measures AND rules out sending her to slaughter.

And what you will say to that is that this is a ranch and its not feasible to keep them all around..........well....I don't believe that.

You threw the very first punch, with a MAJOR ASSUMPTION and a rather nasty insult. But this is how I answered you:

Originally Posted by doublebarr

K - how many people that came on here and said that what was done to Blue was wrong offered their EXPERIENCE with handling horses with this type of problem? No one. I had people telling me I should have tried something different instead of doing this, BUT THEY WOULDN'T SAY WHAT ELSE TO TRY! Just that this shouldn't be done. When asked what their experience was to base this on, they DIDN'T have any. And when asked more than once what they would have done, they finally answered and it was something that we HAD DONE! (I'm not yelling, just emphasising, LOL)

So yes, it is outside their experience. Shoot, it was outside my experience, but instead of just deciding that I KNEW IT ALL, I went looking for help, I asked questions. That's all I wanted out of this thread. Is for people to stop and ask questions before judging, because, it just might be OUTSIDE OF YOUR EXPERIENCE.

Originally Posted by doublebarr

FIL bought this horse from his stock contractor friend because he likes to give me projects. We owned her from that point on.


And to your second whole point, what in the world gives you ANY right to say something like that??????????????

We already have a "retirement pasture" for the horses that have worked for us and put their time in. They EARNED the right to that retirement. Should I have kicked one of them out to put her in their place? A completely useable horse IF the issue could have been gotten through (which it was). I don't know how you operate, but there is only so much money, and some years it's stretched till it squeeks.

I WILL NOT sell on a dangerous horse, EVER! And as she was, she was dangerous.

I'm still shaking my head at that last statement. Please explain it more before I assume.

And then you responded:

Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl

Hmm, the way I see it is that you asked if it was dangerous, abuse or outside experience. Well, to each their own with their answer REGARDLESS of the scenario. If someone thinks its abusive to pull a horse like that, then who are you to tell them that their brain is wrong and they shouldn't think its abusive, because you asked questions, so therefore its correct? If someone thinks its dangerous,,,well then, to them its dangerous...just like some people think jumping is dangerous or abusive, but I don't tell them how wrong they are because thats not how I feel.

You made your point Cindy, and we can mostly all see why you did what you did. BUT that does not mean that everyone must agree with you. And when someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't mean that they didn't ask questions, they don't have experience, etc. I have similar experiences with horses close to her (not as bad) and I can say that no, I wouldn't resort to that method....I do as I mentioned above...send them to pasture.

Now, please tell me how I challanged EVERYONE who dissagreed with me. Look through the thread before. There were many that pretty much said they did not agree with it and I said not one word against them personally. It was when YOU started in pretty much calling me a liar, that I had enough. I wanted to know what you based your knowledge on. It was not who's bigger or better. It was me wanting to know if you just didn't understand becasue you do not live the same lifestyle we do or if you were just being particularly hateful. I asked you questions to try and understand. YOU told me how it was right off the bat.

[kizmet]

ok BW but my point was that the thread had a sarcastic and no it all under tone! That is just my opinion so im not saying it did. I cant see how anyone other than those who whole heartedly agreed with the method could get there point across. Anyone who has disagreed has been attacked and asked to provide a better soulotion.Truth is they dont have one they can still disaprove.


I dont beleive elephants should be hooked and beaten in the circus, i dont have a alternative though does that mean i am not entitled to my opinion? It is the same here! Allow people the oportunity to disagree without having a eight page plan of action to back it up thats all im saying

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl

yes I see that point too. I'm now laughing though...cuz no way in heck could I hold a pickup back...I'm a 120 lb gal.....not a 1000+ lb horse

LOLOL if you COULD hold a truck back you'd get the STRONGEST WOMAN OF THE WORLD Award

[kellidahorsegirl]

ma'am, I'm not the only one who said anything and was condemned for it......read your own thread fully and see for yourself.

[Blistering Winds]

Originally Posted by kizmet

ok BW but my point was that the thread had a sarcastic and no it all under tone! That is just my opinion so im not saying it did. I cant see how anyone other than those who whole heartedly agreed with the method could get there point across. Anyone who has disagreed has been attacked and asked to provide a better soulotion.Truth is they dont have one they can still disaprove.


I

Huh??? See your idea would not hold up in my line of work by far.




You can disagree. YES> However to be down right " that should NOT be done..."

Should have an answer afterwards.


IF this had been the first shot that cindy did...as several people I use to know use to do with pick-ups and horses ...probably to this day....

I would have gone....Ummm....I TOTALLY Disagree. Have you tried this? That? If not, I highly advise you to do so.



But rarely, if ever, will you find a disagreement from myself without something to "PROVE WHY" I disagree.

You can't disagree on something unless you know and can PROVE there is something better.

(and with this horse, something better that hasnt' already been tried)

by multiple people from different walks of life.

I can say the sky is FUsha. You can disagree. But your words are WORTHLESS without proof.

[kellidahorsegirl]

Originally Posted by doublebarr

Hmmmmm, after reading the highlighted parts, I'm still trying to figure out how to answer you without saying what I think about all this. Think I'll just pass this one on by. If you want the answers to your questions, you will have to go back and read. Don't feel like typing it twice because someone's "feelings" got in the way. I've learned more thought rough old men who don't give a dang about feelings, they care more about if your listening and paying attention. And they had knowledge worth knowing.

This is post number 207 for your reference of the full thing.......you don't find your attitude here to be rather crummy and condescending? If you don't, you have some things to work on...

[Blistering Winds]

Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl

ma'am, I'm not the only one who said anything and was condemned for it......read your own thread fully and see for yourself.

ma'am

Now that is funny

[kellidahorsegirl]

ohh, nevermind that last post...even though you can still see it