[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl

If you felt that would happen (the field ornamanet folks selling her), then you include a contract with first right...you PLAN ahead. And I completely 100% agree with not selling a dangerous horse....thats where you're honest.

Good gosh almighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been nothing but honest throughout this thread, this forum and my life. There is nothing not public about us. I've put all my information out there for anyone to see and it would be beyond the height of stupidity to start making things up when they are so easy to check. My website which is listed on this forum has my FULL REAL NAME, not just me hiding behind some screen name.

Keep going Kellidahorsegirl. You're rowing the boat alone from now on.

[kellidahorsegirl]

The selling her to another home comments are stemmed from others' posts....basically saying that I said you couldn't get rid of her at all......thats all that was.

And no, I still did not tell you what to do. Had I done that I would have said this: Cindy, you should have NOT used that method and ____ instead. BUT I didn't say that...I said what I would have done.

And I'll take it back, I don't know what you're capable of keeping around, but I still do stand by my point that its not fair to say she should be fixed or go to slaughter. I do believe, however, that you can get a horse like that, see that its gonna be tough, and start thinking of options for her LIFE before saying 'do this or go to slaughter'. YES there are other options. And once again, you asked what those options would be, I stated them, but its still not good enough for you because I didn't bow down to you and say 'yes Cindy, you were so correct to resort to that method and how dare I disagree with you'.

[kellidahorsegirl]

Can we say,,,taking things way too personally? I said thats where you're honest in the sense that not selling a dangerous horse to someone is NOT honest. It was not to say that you were a dishonest person........it was worded poorly and read poorly.

Originally Posted by doublebarr

Good gosh almighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been nothing but honest throughout this thread, this forum and my life. There is nothing not public about us. I've put all my information out there for anyone to see and it would be beyond the height of stupidity to start making things up when they are so easy to check. My website which is listed on this forum has my FULL REAL NAME, not just me hiding behind some screen name.

Keep going Kellidahorsegirl. You're rowing the boat alone from now on.

[kellidahorsegirl]

Oh and I'll row the boat all day long if it means not giving up on what I believe in and letting someone tromp all over just because they think they're the only person who knows how to work with horses.

Differences occur everywhere in life.....and part of the harmony is accepting that.

[doublebarr]

Originally Posted by banat

Hi guys, I wanted to read the entire post but I only have a few minutes and I'm going to do something that I don't always feel is polite, I'm going to butt in and continue my conversation without reading all the posts because I think it's more respectful in this situation to pop in and say something than wait until I have time to read everything and let everyone think I just quit the thread. LOL, at this point, quiting may be the better part a valor all around, LOL.

I want to first say that the photo depicts something that involves a degree of danger to the horse- as I believe everyone agrees (correct me if I am mis speaking) You are correct, I even stated that it was dangerous, but the idea was to make everyone see that not all dangerous situations are done for no reason.

Like others have pointed out, there are different degree's of danger in everything we do.
Did the ends justify the means? Well, that's up to each individuals interpretation. The mare now leads, didn't get hurt, leads a happy useful life....

I would have used a different method. This is what I would have done-Maybe Doublebarr did something like this and it didn't work- maybe it wouldn't work for me either- I wholeheartedly believe it would- but no one can know for sure, we all have a little different timing etc....
I would have taught her to go forward in the round pen to the left and to the right, I would have taught her inside turns, outside turns, stop, look at me with both eyes and let me approach her. I would have sacked her out with my hand then with the rope. I would have let her carry the rope with it unattached and dragging to make sure she was comfortable with the rope on her and around her with her standing still and moving. I then would have put the bridle or halter on her and asked her to carry it doing inside turns, outside turns and come to me (forgot to add that step earlier) when I could "lead" her in the roundpen with nothing attaching me to her I would have used a lariet on her halter and asked for the same steps, go forward, inside turns, outside turns, come toward me, go away from me etc... When she was at the edge of the round pen I would have applied a small amount of pressure to the halter, because I already taught her to go forward I could ask her to walk forward (in a big circle around me) and keep the slack out of the rope until she put the slack in the rope by turning her head toward me (I would prefer just the head, not the whole body) With enough repetition for her to put the slack in the rope by turning her head toward me she would eventually step toward the center of the circle, if she backed up I would just keep the slack out of the rope, not applying more pressure, trying to keep the pressure even, until she accidently put the slack in the rope. From that point I would have built on having her find the release by repeating the small steps.
I don't have time to type more because I'm trying to get workers and everything organized for a show we are putting on tomorrow and getting clients horses ready as well as my own but I will be back when I can.

And I agree that we all have different timing, which is why I asked others into the situation, so I appreciate the fact that you took the time to write this out.

Normally, I don't do more than about a week in a RP situation, I like to get them outside as soon as possible, but that is for horses that I am the original one to start and train. Blue spent about a month and a half in the RP. We started from square one. She would free lunge and follow your directions very solidly. Ask her to "join-up" and she would 100% (NH trainer was supprised he didn't have to "teach" her that when he tried working with her since she already had it down). She got the full works with all sorts of the "spooky stuff" put all over her, even her head. I like to get them lead broke with the legs and a rope also, since we rope for work and they need to be confortable with a rope. She would "lead" with a rope around each foot, and we concentrated on her belly and flank, to rewire her thinking about pressure and contact there becasue of her time in the bucking string. She was soft and easy to work with. BUT, if the rope went on her neck, she shut down and quit learning. She was stalled in the beginning with a halter and short lead hoping she would "teach herself" that pressure on the halter and lead was not scary. When she stepped on the lead she would calmly step off and it was no problem. If you touched the lead and made ANY contact, she would throw herself back. I tried to do it every day. first with no "feel" or "pull" at all and she was fine. The moment she felt any restriction at all, no matter how slight, she'd throw herself back violently, soft didn't make a difference, the reaction never changed. IF you led her to the tie (meaning asked for join-up and let her walk with you) she would walk right up to it, let you tie her and stand there all day. She did not pull back, shoot, she would not move her feet at all, she stood still as a statue. If you untied her and put any pressure on the lead for her to move, she would throw herself back. If you asked her to move with no pressure, she would follow you again, until and unless you put pressure on the lead.

So we kept moving on with the other training without "holding" her head, hoping consistant positive reinforcement of good behavior would break through. She would stand to be saddled and bridled while loose and not move, as our other horses do. By the end of the year she was riding very well, as long as you put the bridle on with reins hanging, then left them loose over her neck while getting on. Once in the saddle, you could make contact with the reins and she had no problems. But, stand on the ground and make the same contact and she threw herself back.

The final concensus (spl?) that everyone who worked with her came up with was that something tramatic had happened to her at the moment pressure was put on her head from the ground and she had a complete and total mental melt down when that same "situation" triggered that response in her brain. She was not mean, but it was very dangerous.

Almsot forgot. You could also rope and hold a calf off of her. But, you had to stay on her back and someone else had to doctor the calf. The tension on the rope running RIGHT by her head holding the calf did not bother her. Step down and walk toward her head and she'd come apart. We learned this by roping the dummy in the ring for a while. Only stepped down once and we didn't do that again. But you could throw and hold something and she was fine with a rider.


Like I said, I don't want anyone to think I just bailed out on the thread, but I don't have much time right now.
Also, I know it is hard sometimes to convey emotion in writing, although some are better than the rest of us I want to say everything I've posted I've meant with the utmost respect. I am not trying to be inflammatory. Even if I have a different opinion, or a different perspective or an additional perspective, I still respect and appreciate hearing everyone elses, that's how I learn

The "rest of the story" is in my responses in this HUGE thread.

(edited to add: but, don't forget that she would take to bucking once in a while. You could go a couple of weeks with her working well, then she would pull a snorting bellering bucking spree on you. But after that, you could climb back on and she'd be fine again for days. She had a lot going on in her head.)

[BonnieM]

Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl

Differences occur everywhere in life.....and part of the harmony is accepting that.

YES! And taking one's own advice is where the harmony comes from...within

BonnieM

[Aussiesnapps]

It seems to ME, IMHO, and only mine that many folks(not all) on this thread are horse owners that have horses as pets and not as a business. I know that I'm somewhere in between. If I have a horse that will not produce a quality that make them worthy of my yard they have to go. If it's mean and more that I can handle I find some who can and will only give the horse up with full disclosure of all vises and I also keep an open door policy to bring it back if they can't fix it. If all methods are tried and tested and nothing works I will put it down for the safety of those who might have to come in contact with it, and it's own well being.

I will no more keep a dangerous horse than a dog that bites, or a bull that is mad in the head. Human safety first always.

Oh and yes, I am for slaughter houses that are ran humanely and the death penalty for criminals found worthy. I'm against puppy mills, and spoiled kids. I'm for doing the best you can with what you have and I'm against telling others that they are wrong before I walk a mile in their shoes.

Very few cattle ranching operations I know of don't have to really check out the money and the resources and determine what is feasible and what is not. and most of those are just barely making it every year. I'm not assuming Cindy's is this way. I just saying that a drought, a fire to the hay or just raising the price of gas a few pennies my be what get a for sale sign on the front gate of most ranchers her in Texas. Many where selling cattle for nothing just because there was no hay anywhere due to drought and fire.

My hay had to come from MI and was $120 a round bale (up from $45 the year before) 200% increase and I just had my three to feed. Square bales were $4.00 to $6.50 for grass hay and it went to $9.60 for grass and weed mix.

THERE ARE NO FREE RIDES IN THE REAL WORLD.

Cindy you are far more determined than I believe most folks here are and I love that you season it with a heck of a lot of common sense. I've done some crazy *$$ things in my life to get to the end justifying the means and I applaud you for not giving up.

It would have been the end of my world if I bought that horse for my kids from someone who didn't care and was a low line "horse trader" at an auction and it God forbid injured or killed one of them.

As I said before Thanks for the info.

[katylynn06]

Wow. I'm amazed at how fast the topic got out of hand just b/c of one person. I find it interesting when people post new ideas on training. And if I don't agree with them then I don't have to use them. What works for one may not work for another. I posted a post about a trainer tying up BW's leg to break him so we can get in the saddle. Did I do it. NO but it works for that trainer. I commend Cindy also on her patience I would have given up long ago. I was ready to send BW to a trainer cuz we couldn't back him but I didn't and now we are one day at a time. JxG if you consider your self experienced in training that what would you consider me. I have trained our colt from the ground up first and only. And he was our second horse ever owned? Oh yea that's right she is removing herself from this post. Heck I have enough experience to train them all. JK

[kellidahorsegirl]

Cindy,,,,you said she was bucking stock correct? After reading your response a couple posts up.....do you think she cracked her head in a chute at some point and so was overlly sensitive to her poll pressure because of that (even if the injury had healed and been checked by a vet?).

Did you ever use a neck rope, like a collar on her ever?

[kellidahorsegirl]

Originally Posted by BonnieM

YES! And taking one's own advice is where the harmony comes from...within

BonnieM

The strange part is: I believe I stated in my first post in this thread that I was not opposed to the method that cindy chose to use.
I came in here to stick up for the folks who disagreed and were condemned because of it.