[Feliche]

Everyone has their opinion on what correct contact is and how to achieve it. What is yours?

Hypothetical situation:

You are training a high-strung OTTB in a loose ring snaffle. When you apply more contact, he stiffens and goes above the bit, and continues forward. If the rider applies rein, the horse has been known to rear on occasion. When you lessen the contact, the horse curls under the bit and goes strongly forward.

The horse does have a relaxed trot, but stiffens as soon as any rein is applied. It has already been introduced to side reins and long lines (ground driving) with wonderful results on the ground, but as soon as he is ridden, he is very objected to contact.

What would you do if you were this rider?
What might be a reason for this evasion?
What can the rider do to help?
What might the rider be doing to worsen the situation?

In short, how can this horse SAFELY and easily (mentally for the horse) be taught to accept the contact?

Thanks for your opinions! I look forward to seeing them.

[JBandRio]

Since you say he's accepting contact with side reins on the lunge, but things fall apart with a rider, then I'd strongly suspect poor saddle fit. Being on contact properly requires the horse to lift his back, and if he does that into a saddle that is poking him, he's going to hollow his back which raises his head.

Also, if the angle of contact is different when ridden vs on the lunge (as is often the case), there may be something about the bit's relationship to his mouth that hurts.

The rider should never ever ever pull back on the reins when the horse comes above contact or curls behind it. The answer is *never* more hand, it is always more leg. Leg to hand. Do not pull. Ever.

[guess who]

I too would suspect bad saddle fit. Even if you lunge in a saddle, the added weight of the rider could cause pain and especially stiffening.
All of the behaviour you described seems to point towards pain evasion.

However if you found out there was no pain I'd probably start with somebody sitting on him while on the lunge and getting that sorted.

I'd then move on to rein contact. The horse has to accept that he has to move from the leg into the hand, so I'd be applying lots of half halts, making sure there's plenty of give after the take, as well as flexing him a little with the inside rein to remind him to soften and stay relaxed. The half halts will keep him balanced so that he doesn't rush so much as well.
I'd also do a lot of stretching and bending in the walk, so that he learns to accept bit contact without rearing up or stiffening.

Applying contact and accepeting the bit isn't the same as pulling. Lots of horses will rear if pulled, but learning to give to the bit is essential.

Although, my initial reaction is definitely pain for some reason. If he accepts bit pressure while being lunged but not under saddle, I would assume something hurts him when he is being ridden

[JBandRio]

Also, you say "it has been introduced with side reins" - exactly how much contact is there? What does the horse's outline look like? It's ENTIRELY possible he's "accepting" the contact but still keeping a hollow back, but doesn't feel threatened because there's no rider trying to ride him forward. Do you have any video of him on the lunge? He may be doing that all wrong, and things just get worse with a rider.

You say he's got a relaxed trot on a loose rein - but is he forward? Do you have any video, or pictures, of that too?

[farmeress]

Since this is a "hypothetical" situation, I will come from it as a training issue, instead of tack/health issue which has been ruled out by every "hypothetical" expert around.

I would immediately start to access my body alignment, aid(s) pressure, stiffness/resistance in seat bone/pelvic bone, tenseness through thigh/ lower/upper back, softness of shoulder/elbow/wrist/fingers.

I would then adjust myself accordingly.

This would obviously be a soft mouth horse that would benefit more from "body" aids then just bit or leg.

The softness I would start the aids at would be minuscule increasing ever so slightly until I found this horses' "communication" level.

Some horses use "inside voice" levels, some need to have a little louder communication, and some, like this fellow, prefer a soft whisper.

I would use the back, seat, pelvic bone, leg aids concentrating that the timing of the aid coincides with the tempo so the established rhythm does not have to be adjusted with anymore pressure on the rein than a feather landing on it (or as required for the horse to hear me without having to react like I yelled at him through the rein causing him to invert with resistance).

To me.....it is rider......they must have the "feel of the horse" with the "practical knowledge" of how to train in this "hypothetical" situation" to help the horse through a "communication" level the horse understands when progressing with training

[Argonaut]

As someone said above I don't think the horse is properly accepting the contact on the lunge. Agree that contact is nothing to do with pulling and more leg needed. This horse may need to delevelop more muscles to work correctly. I would rather a horse be above the bit slightly than below so if it's either or at the moment I would go for that option and then assess the rider. The legs should be used to push them up to the bit, it probably won't be consistent at 1st but will get more so if rider asks and rewards, asks and rewards....

[pippy]

I would look to rider first and foremost - how are the riders hands? Do they move alot? Is this happening in the walk? Sometimes the horse can be more accepting at the trot because its much easier to maintain the fowards where as walk is to easy to interefere with.
There are health issues that will need to be looked into.

If I was the rider in this hypothetical situation and the horse was sound health wise (all things included feet, teeth saddle etc) I'd look for foward movement, on a really realy light rein aid, slowly increase the contact with a foward thinking hand - much different to a steady/fixed hand.
The foward thinking hand allows the horse to run fowards if thats what he wishes to do and use the body to maintain what rhythm can be found, under no circumstance should the hand block the movement or pull the horse back, down a pace what have you, hypothetically I would assume the horse is scared of the contact or confused by to many aids happening so it needs to be simplified.
I would also look to ground driving/ long reining to teach contact with someone skilled enough, who can maintain foward, create a nice contact (really hard to do for someone not used to long line) and because teh rider isn't upset balance or anything else the problem may not occur - however if the horse was to rear is much better dealt with from behind than on top

[Feliche]

I apologise for the poor wording there!

Instead of "pulling back", I meant applying the rein to ask the horse to slow down (as opposed to applying rein pressure to encourage contact), not pulling against the horse that is resisting the bit I'm sorry!!

Awesome replies!! Hope to see more.

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by Feliche;[I

3257453]I apologise for the poor wording there! [/i]

Instead of "pulling back", I meant applying the rein to ask the horse to slow down (as opposed to applying rein pressure to encourage contact), not pulling against the horse that is resisting the bit I'm sorry!!

Awesome replies!! Hope to see more.

I took your wording as this interpretation

It is also why I focused on the rider area of your question.

If this horse is forward and relaxed at the trot, accepting contact with the bit while on sidereins, yet he resists the riders contact through evasions like going behind the bit or rearing when stronger rein is applied, that is a "strong" indication of rider error.

To me....riding a horse into a resisting/too hard of an aid by body or bit....is like running into an invisible wall.....GO....STOP....GO.....STOP.....

The riders' legs say move on, but tensness/resistance in the riders' body says stop.....how frustrating it must be for the horse.

Clear communication is needed

Another indication of rider fault is by not adjusting the aids to "this" particular horse.

If he resist so violently to my aids, then I am too weak/strong/inaccurate/late/early with them.

Or

My body is out of alignment affecting my balance as well as the horse.

It is up to me, the rider, to find our communication level and make sure all aids are clearly executed and understood by the horse I am training.

[TBnut]

Hope this helps:

What would you do if you were this rider? I would get the horse used to my leg since he is an OTTB. I would ride on a long, light contact using seat and leg aids untill he relaxed and started stretching. This can take a lot of time and many repetitive schooling sessions. He will run from the leg initially (let him run but keep the leg on--use large circles to slow him down), but once he is used to it he will feel more secure.

What might be a reason for this evasion? OTTBs are in the habit of thinking when you shorten the reins, it's time to go. Leaning forward in the saddle can get them motoring as well. That's why they can go so great on the lunge. As soon as you add the rider they pick up on these subtle cues we are giving them. Also, when a rider is on their back it has meant go, go, go since they were 2 year olds.

What can the rider do to help? Be patient and don't be consumed with where his head is--try to ride him long and low and keep using leg and seat aids until he relaxes. He's going to be trucking around--let him truck. Just stay soft until you feel like you've got a stop button. Then you can start asking for some flexion and half halts. If he's not ready he'll tense up, pop goes the head and you can forget him listening to any rein aids. Go back to leg and seat cues asking him to stretch down.

What might the rider be doing to worsen the situation? By getting frustrated...boy they can pick up on that in a hurry and all is lost. Stay calm and reassure him that he is doing good. TB's want to please and they get nervous easily wondering what they should be doing--and also, they wonder why can't they just be running?? It's so much easier for them!