[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by Smoke N Lace

If the mare is truly liver chestnut, she could produce a liver that carries the dilution gene but doesn't express it.

Dilute is ALWAYS expressed, but how easily you can see it is the question

You're right though in that what might look liver could be a very dark palomino - it's still expressed, just not showing as you'd expect it to.

[Appylvr]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Dilute is ALWAYS expressed, but how easily you can see it is the question

You're right though in that what might look liver could be a very dark palomino - it's still expressed, just not showing as you'd expect it to.

I've seen Palominos that I thought were sorrels with light manes and tails.

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Dilute is ALWAYS expressed, but how easily you can see it is the question

You're right though in that what might look liver could be a very dark palomino - it's still expressed, just not showing as you'd expect it to.

The liver mare I was describing carried the dilute gene as she could pass it on, but it was absolutely not visible in any way. She was a dark liver chestnut with a dark mane and tail.

[JetdecksComet]

I've seen foals that look similar to this one test positive for cream. I have also seen a foal that you would swear was a regular bay test positive for cream.

[Appylvr]

Originally Posted by Smoke N Lace

The liver mare I was describing carried the dilute gene as she could pass it on, but it was absolutely not visible in any way. She was a dark liver chestnut with a dark mane and tail.

I've always heard that a dilute is always shown. Except for a Smokey Black. They're the only ones that have a dilute gene that don't show they do. They look like a regular black horse, but have the possiblity to throw buckskins and palominos.

[JetdecksComet]

Smoky blacks can also be confused for very dark liver chestnuts, as they sometimes have a reddish cast to them.

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by JetdecksComet

Smoky blacks can also be confused for very dark liver chestnuts, as they sometimes have a reddish cast to them.

That might be the answer to the puzzle about that mare. I always thought smoky blacks were black with an "overcast" visible. I don't know the right term for it. The mare had liver back in her pedigree and people weren't as knowledgable about genetics back then. They could have been registered incorrectly generations back, though she showed to be from a liver and palomino cross.

[JetdecksComet]

Well, to find out for sure you could have her tested for red factor and cream. $25 each test through Animal Genetics

Although, if she is truly out of a liver chestnut and palomino cross, then she can't be a black horse. Because if you breed two red-based colors (such as those) you can only get a red based horse (in this case, chestnut or palomino). In order for her to be a smoky black, the liver will have had to been a black (probably smoky) that was misregistered, as well.

Was that clear as muck? LOL

[Solsalia]

she's out of a chestnut and cremello cross. Looking at the foals shannond posted of his babies some come out pretty dark. The stud can only foal buckskin and palominos (homozygous for the Agouti gene - makes bays and buckskins on black based horses) so this baby is a dark palomino. IT's only option.

If the mare is a smoky black and misregistered she still didn't have a little buckskin

This is from the site
**NOTE: For those of you who don't know -
These palomino foals will shed their reddish foal coats to palomino. Their manes and tails will change to white between 2-6 months.

[Smoke N Lace]

Originally Posted by JetdecksComet

Well, to find out for sure you could have her tested for red factor and cream. $25 each test through Animal Genetics

Although, if she is truly out of a liver chestnut and palomino cross, then she can't be a black horse. Because if you breed two red-based colors (such as those) you can only get a red based horse (in this case, chestnut or palomino). In order for her to be a smoky black, the liver will have had to been a black (probably smoky) that was misregistered, as well.

Was that clear as muck? LOL

Unfortunately my friend sold this mare a few years ago so we can't test. I know she certainly looked liver but someone said smoky black can look liver. The registry showed her to be from liver/palomino cross, which led me to believe a dark liver could mask the dilution gene. If that's not possible, I really think she must have been a smoky black and her ancestors were probably smoky blacks that had been misregistered as liver chestnut. I am assuming that she carried the dark gene and a sorrel gene. Thus, the palomino foal. Thanks for the info. You've been very enlightening. I know there are some color gurus on this forum. Maybe they can tell us more about the liver/palomino dilute cross.