[PizzazzandMe]

I know what it is but how do you achieve true collection?

[PizzazzandMe]

15 views and no replies?

[clyde-gal]

You asked a big question, something many of us strive for. Many think that head set and on the bit is collection, but the main part is also the coming under or impulsion of the horse and the moving forward, forward and freely. Does that help?

[Sissy]

i ride my horse with a tight rein when i collect him up
jus try to urge them forward keep the horse moving at a steady gait and slowly start slowing them down but dont let them break down to a slower gait
itll take practice and time
any more questions jus ask

[Cavalier]

Collection is a word that gets thrown around ALOT.

A horse ridden at collected walk/trot/canter is totally different to a horse being ridden on the bit. In lower levels of dressage, the test requires mostly working gaits. In a working gait, the horse should be forward, submissive, obedient, ridden round (on the bit) so this means that the horse is using his bum as his engine and is working well from behind, tracking up.

As the levels in dressage become more demanding and challenging, horses are no longer required to have their gaits as 'working' but instead 'collected'. When a horse is truly collected he does the same that he does in 'working' gaits, but he engages his hind quarters MUCH more. This is evident when the horse holds most of his weight in the QH's and transforms that weight into power, as a result of this, he lifts alot of the weight off his forehand, this goes to his hind and in turn, the horse moves very light, not flat and heavy like you see some horses in the early stages of dressage.

In collected gaits, the strides are short and more elevated, the same tempo as other trots (extended, medium, working) is maintained.

So, i've explained working and collected gaits. Medium gaits is an in-between of working and extended. The horses stride is larger (but not extended) and therefore, more impulsion is required. In the extended gaits, the horse must cover as much ground as he can within that stride. You will see the horse extend his legs as much as he can.

So, collection is a gait. It doesn't mean to work on the bit. Eg, a horse is not collected in working trot, medium walk or extended canter. They should be forward, on the bit, working from behind and active, but they are never collected because they are performing a different gait variety. Eg, if a horse is pacing, you can't say he is trotting!

Another gait variety of collection is piaffe and passage. These are both HIGHLY collected movements, so it would be correct to say (in the case of seeing a horse performing piaffe or passage) that the horse is very/highly collected.

[cassidy]

well true collection has to be like dressage horses in my opinion

it can be a very high standard although most people simple go for a horse on the bit that is nicely rounded an can get a smooth uptogether canter at a slow pace!

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by cassidy

it can be a very high standard although most people simple go for a horse on the bit that is nicely rounded an can get a smooth uptogether canter at a slow pace!

But thats not collection! Its merely a horse on the bit (if that, alot of so called 'dressage' horses are ridden with their heads down, but not all of them are properly on the bit) taking shorter strides. Unless those strides are elevated and that power and elevation is coming from behind, the croup is lowered to take sufficient weight off the forehand then its NOT true collection.

BTW, I didn't post a book length reply on how to acheive 'true collection' incase you are like many others and thought that collection was another term for 'on the bit'.

[Oscar]

Thank you Cavalier, thats a great explaination.

Cleared up all my confusion.

[Borlina]

You are correct.

True collection comes from behind.
I was told by a very wise instructor, who also happens to be a Nationals judge, Pam King, to consider a tube of toothpaste.
If you squeeze from the front the toothpaste doesn't come out. right- pfft.
Don't ever consider that riding holding tight on a rein is collection. It isn't. Holding a horse in position is incorrect, they must hold their own head in position and develop upper neck muscle instead of depending or leaning on the hands.
That takes driving up from behind to set the head, not holding the reins tight to pull the head in..
Correct is the toothpaste tube that is gently squuezed from behind the middle ever so gently and the toothpaste comes out evenly.
I guess that's hard to picture.
So an example. I love Western/Western sidesaddle best, I should say. I use Wessage for my training method in classical French Dressage basis.
So collection in W/P is a slowing of the gait to a smooth one/two motion and the horse must have a natural inclination to drive up and yet remain in frame.

In sidesaddle which is my thing, I use all body aids.
I can do renvers, travers, turn on forehand, turn on haunches. Haunches in/out. Not perfectly yet. That will come.
Not of which is done with any more than light contact on the rein. They are moving forward on the bit. It's all in the drop or change of weight, a push forward or a weight move downwards. You don't have a right leg.
Collection still comes from behind and you feel it more aside.
I can ask for a jog with my body position in western or in English I can ask for and speed up the trot to extended or slow it down according to how I push or sit and still post easily.
I have a new Stübben Dressage sidesaddle and can't wait til Musique Nocturne is finished enough to ride in a Training or first level class aside.
Still it's all homework and the collection never looks forced. It is straight, free, forward and harmony when it's right. When it's wrong it's tight, hard, forced and ugly.
I just hoped I explained what I was thinking right since I haven't been thinking right lately anyway..
Thanks,
Pat
MK Onyx Black Beauty Spokeshorse against abuse

Originally Posted by Cavalier

But thats not collection! Its merely a horse on the bit (if that, alot of so called 'dressage' horses are ridden with their heads down, but not all of them are properly on the bit) taking shorter strides. Unless those strides are elevated and that power and elevation is coming from behind, the croup is lowered to take sufficient weight off the forehand then its NOT true collection.

BTW, I didn't post a book length reply on how to acheive 'true collection' incase you are like many others and thought that collection was another term for 'on the bit'.

[Dancinglite]

Three words that seem to send people into a state of confusion are collection, balance and forward. Any one cannot exist without the other as each is required to be present to a certain degree to make the picture whole.

Forward can be described as the addition of thrust from the hind quarters to propel the horse into a certain direction. It can also be described as the absence of constraint developing into suppleness. It is from this we can develop a correct head carriage. As a result of the horse reaching for the bit the back becomes more active and carries the riders seat forward without rough bounces, The ribs expand with the rear legs reaching more under itself causing them to press closer to the riders leg. The rider will feel a slight lifting of the forehand and there will be more of the horse in front of him. The rider is in effect changing the horse from a natural balance to an acquired balance.

Acquired balance requires a horse to maintain its rhythm by even distribution of the weight ( work) load on each leg. Without this, equilibrium is imperiled and the horse loses balance and hurries. Each step will be going faster and faster in an effort to gain its balance. The rider even with sitting deep may not be able to help the horse once it has reached a certain point.

To achieve " acquired balance" the rider maintains contact with the horse through the lowest point of the saddle. Sitting slightly behind the hips the spine swings with the horse with the lower leg remaining in contact but not gripping the horse. These together induce the flexion and extension of the rear legs. If the rider "feels" the horse they will realize that movement in the horses body provide an " alternating" left/right leg control. Allowing this movement to come into passive resistive hands and increasing the lateral flexion to the outside rein by "vibrating" the inner rein to induce the horse to come softer on that side.

This driving will in essence strengthen the topline and by producing a longer more energetic stride within the horse and create more energetic pulsations along the dorsal muscle group, the whole spinal column is stretched towards the front causing the horse to become supple and contact with the bit. The activity of the hindquarters counterbalances the stretching and maintains equilibrium. The training and gymnastic exercising of these muscles will allow them to do their job and become stronger, therefore "fill out" the topline.

In a horse moving properly the back is extended two ways......downward and to the rear. This double extension owing to the stretching of the hindquarters makes the topline--croup,back and the crest of the neck longer in collection than in any other posture. It will also allow the horse to adapt to the bit by having the hind quarter strength to be lowered and allowing it to adapt to the bit.

The bit is accepted by the horse as a result of driving the horses rear quarters more underneath himself which causes the pulsations from this forward reach to pass along the spinal column, through the riders driving seat to the poll. This will cause the forehand to rise and the horse adapts to the bit according to its conformation.

Long explanation and easy to do once you understand the mechanics involved.

The biggest problem most people have is that they ride the horse from front to back and all that does is stifle the forward reach of the rear legs. The end result is the horses balance goes off and the horse either leans on the bit or throws their head up. The rear legs in both cases travel behind the horse and it will either run to try to bring it's balance together or just play the "lazy" game.

The other biggest fault is to ride the horse forward but to the point that the horse is running into the bit and is balancing itself on the bit. In this case the rider has failed to ask the horse to balance on the outside rein.A properly trained dressage horse is "caught" between a driving inside leg a supportive outside leg and a soft light inside rein and a communicative and supporting outside rein.Without this the horse has all sorts of evasions such as balking or running out.

I teach all my students to ride the rein forward. To do this the horse is on the outside rein with a little more pressure than the inside rein. The inside foot will prevent the horse from falling in. The outside foot applies enough pressure to turn the forehand 1/4 the width of the horse towards the inside. This ensures correct contact with the outside rein, prevent the falling out of the horse and act as a counter to the inside foot. After the initial hold release ONE rein very slightly only as far as the next step the horse will take and resume contact afterwards. This might appear as a circular almost massaging motion of the hand. Upon resumption of contact a slight vibration of the rein will ensure the horse does not "sit" on the rein. This is repeated on the opposite rein. THIS IS NOT SAWING as proper contact MUST be attained by one rein before the release of the opposite rein is started. DO NOT RELEASE the outside rein to the horse when in training and in a corner or on a curve.

Very shortly you will find that the horse will maintain a headset according to the degree of collection requested with only the slightest touch of the rein.and you can test this by a full release of both reins for a step or two.

If we have reached this stage then collection either of a greater or lesser nature can be asked for however we must not be fooled by the horse that evades this demand and creates the appearance of collection. These horses will have legs that will appear to move correctly but there is no connection between the legs back and poll. These horses go with a stiffened or hollow back and lull even some of the best riders into thinking they are "collected".

It is not unusual for these horses to simply raise their legs higher, but the suspension and support phase within the traveling arc of the rear legs is not there. The legs are barely on the ground before they are lifted, usually as a snap as opposed to thrust and support which is actually required. This can be seen readily in the gaited horses esp. saddlebreds where the neck is tucked and the poll is the highest point the back is often hollowed and the rear legs do not truly support the body.

As the horse shortens the stride (to provide support) and reaches forward the abdominal muscles MUST contract to support the connection from the rear to the front hence collection. The horse must have a rounded back and cannot fulfill the demands the rider will ask with a hollow back. True collection can be felt by the riders seat and legs. As the rear legs become more supportive the ribs will expand and "fill" out the riders legs, almost like them being pushed outwards. The loss of collection can be felt by the rider as the horse suddenly disappearing from under him and causing his legs hanging limply.