[AmyZ]

Originally Posted by bratt79

To all involved in this thread, nobody is stealing this thread, the more you post, the more I learn and ask questions myself. .....

Thanks very much bratt79 I do feel a bit stupid asking these silly questions though.

I think I'm actually confused over the term 'seat'. Is this just a polite term for a*s, or does it actually mean a*s plus legs?

I think I might be starting to understanding EVOO's explanation though, thanks EVOO

Originally Posted by EVOO

With the horse not leaning on the bit and you not holding his face back - riding with light contact at the walk - encourage him to engage his hindquarters with impulsion - if he truly moves along with impulsion it'll naturally engage the hindquarters and he'll reach under himself more to push himself along. At the same time using your legs to encourage a lift of the ribs - and therefore his back. He shouldn't rush forward heavy into your hands, rather he should bring his hind under himself and round up in order to fit the impulsion of the stride into the frame of body you're asking for.

............

[MIEventer]

Ok - please excuse how long this is going to be. I sat and thought about this allot last night and early this morning and I am going to type out exactly what I am thinking - to reach that goal needed, of true collection, engagement, balance etc, etc....

There is allot at play where functional riding comes into factor. Everyone talks about how to get the horse to do what you want - but you cannot do that, if you don't even know how to use your body.

You are the most important factor in this picture. You are your horses trainer every time you get into the saddle. Your horse reflects YOU. Your horse is only as good as you are.

You have to know how to ask the correct questions, to get the answers needed - according to each horse.

There is 1 generic rule of thumb. I hear it all the time from great riders:

Seat To Legs To Hands To Soften.

Easy right? Riiiiiiiggghhhht......easier said than done. But when you figure it out - you will have that large light bulb turn on, over your head - and you will end up saying to yourself "OOOOOOOOOOH!!!"

Your body:

1) Your seat is very important as is every other part of your body. You seat must be functional, but over active - but functional. You must be balanced - on all 3 points. Seat bones and crotch.

Your seat controls the back end. Whatever tempo your seat is going, your horse will come to you.

It must be soft when needed. It must be engaging when needed. It must speak to your horse at a whisper.

When you post......your rise must be minimal, just a smidge out of the saddle - not big and loud like we see. Believe it or not - it should not land back in the saddle when you go down. Your breeches should just brush the seat of your saddle and all your bodies weight should be in your heels.

If you are effecting your horses back, the back will not lift.

Our horses backs are VERY sensative.

Slow your seat, your horse slows. Activate your seat, your horse activates.

Harden your seat, your horse hardens.

No matter what your seat does - it should never effect your upper or lower body.

2) Your Core is connected to your lower back, your lower back is connected to your seat. Without your core, you have nothing. Your core is the center of it all. You have no lower back, you have no core. You have no seat - you have no lower back.

While sitting in your chair, rock onto your croctch - what happens to your lower back and where is your core? Can you feel it?

Now rock back onto your 2 seat bones and straiten your lower back - where is your core? Can you feel it?

The moment your hollow out your lower back, your balance has now gushed out the front of you, and you've lost your core. The moment you roach your lower back, your balance has gushed out the back of you and now you have too over active of a core.

You must have balance.

3) Your legs. Must be just as functional. Your legs ride the ribs - your legs ride the back. Your legs keep the impulsion you've created through your seat. Once you've created the needed rhythm through your seat, your legs now aid in that department.

Not by being nagging or loud. But just by being there - saying - yes, this is what I want.

Your legs support, your legs bend the ribs, your left lift the back.

There cannot be any gripping. There cannot be any pinching - and all your bodies weight should be allowed to flow through your body and down into your heels. Everything is absorbed into your heels.

The moment you grip, the moment you pinch - you've now blocked that flow.

4) Your upper body is important. You lean forward - your weight is now on your horses forehand. You lean back, you are now behind the verticle. You must have balance. You must be over the center of your horses gravity - always! The moment you are out, your horse is now too.

Your shoulders are connected to your elbows, your elbows are connected to your hands. All must be functional - without one, you've created the domino effect of unfunctional hands and upper body.

You drop your shoulders meaning - you allow the to drop, slouch, roaching your upper back - where does your center balance go? What happens to your lower back? Where did the angle of your elbows go? Where did your hands go?

All are united together to play the part of functional riding.

4) Hands - hands are so important.

MANY RIDERS RIDE WITH TOO LOUD OF HANDS. Why? We want to hold that face in. We seem to think our hands ride the face - when in reality, our hands ride the shoulders.

Our hands are there to keep your horses shoulders under them, and to keep a functional outside rein.

Your seat rides the rhythm. Your seat rides the tempo. Your seat determins the tempo and flow. Not your hands.

Your hands are there to be soft. Be supportive. Be lifting.

They cannot be functional when they hold, when they force, when they pop the horse in the mouth. They cannot do their job accordingly when they are stiff. That is not what they are meant to do.

Your horse has to beable to move forward, to open up and into him/herself. They cannot do that if you have too much contact, they cannot do that if you are controlling their face or holding their face in.

Leave their faces alone!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR HANDS ARE NOT TO RIDE THE FACE - BUT THE SHOULDERS!

Your outside rein is meant to support and allows all that energy you've created through your seat and your legs - to recycle back through. This way, your horse is lifted, your horse is supported, your horse doesn't drop and go flat and on their forehand.

All of your body parts, play a big important part of getting the ultimate goal of riding collected, getting your horse soft at the poll, getting your horse engaged, well rounded and onto the bit.

Without one, you don't have the other.

Now do keep in mind, everything isn't always together. Sometimes you have to compromise one to get a question you ask, clear to the horse. Or you have to compromise to accomodate the horses needs.

But your balance in the saddle, is essential. You are out, your horse is out.

In order for your horse to truely be collected - comes through consistant, persistant, functional work - to build all the essential muscles in order to do so.

In order to do so - there must be a united connection of CORRECT aids - via the rider.

[sarahhowen]

Wow what a great post MIEventer.

I am in a similar situation as the OP, bringing my mare back into work after weaning her foal and what you have writen MIEventer makes a lot of sense.

I am having a lesson with my instructor on Sunday morning to get some further guidance on exercises to do and I will be sure to post the suggestions on this thread.

[farmeress]

I agree with about 90% of what MIEventer says but am confused about number 2

But....we all learn different ways and that is what is good about forums....finding out how others train or are taught.

The core muscles are not attached to the seat but are part of the abs and diaphram area consisting of 5 individual muscles that are used to empower the back which in turns power and engages the seat.

If one sits in a chair and bends...or does a sit up....the core muscles are felt in the front.

The back must power the seat which in turn is powered by the core muscles.

One can ride fine without powerful core muscles...I see it often.

If a horse is soft....a rider can have a flabby core and still be balanced and successful since it is rider alignment that places the seat/pelvic bone correctly and not the core.

The core adds strenght to a balanced position, strength to all aids execpt the weight aids....these aids are not affected by the core until an active aid is added.

To me.....the back is more important in the function when engaging the seatbones.

The core muscles will add energy to the use of the seat bones into the pelvic area in an upward transition while allowing the weight aids to stay down through the riders' own back.

These aids then travel from the riders' back into the seat where the aid is communicated to the horses' back who then engages their own core muscle harnessing the Kenetic energy created and sending it into the hind quateres of the horse.

The horse is now at attention and in a prime physical moment where the rider can ask for any movement and have a balanced, quick, accurate response with plenty of muscle powered stored in both rider and horse.

[MIEventer]

I believe every muscle is connected to another. Without one, you loose the other.

You rock onto your crotch, you not only loose your core - but you loose your center of balance - the lower back hollows and your balace goes out the front and you loose your core.

You roach your lower back, you've now over emphasised your core and your seat is now heavier. Your center balance gushes out the back.

You not only have to have a strong core to be an effective rider - but you also have to have a strong lower back that is flexible.

By riding on all 3 points of your seat, keeping your lower back strait - your core has more functionallity. You also have balance.

Your core and lower back and seat also decipher where your upper body is.

They are all connected. Like that tune "the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone, the thigh bone is connected to the, hip bone" lol.

Think of that with your muscles and body parts while riding.

Here is a great article about rider fitness and core:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_eM...result#PPR6,M1

I believe that without one, you cannot have the other.


While sitting in your chair. Sit up like you would in the saddle. Sit on all 3 points with your lower back strait.

Now, rock onto your crotch, and hollow out your lower back. You've lost your core - you cannot feel it as much as you did when your lower back was strait and on all 3 points of your seat.

Try to activate your core on your crotch with your lower back hollowed out.

Now do the same when on all 3 points and lower back strait.

I find a big difference.

They are all connected.


THE BACK CANNOT BE EFFECTIVE WITHOUT A CORE.


When doing ab exercises - you cannot build strong abs, without a strong back. You have a large belly, you effect your lower back strength.

You cannot only do sit up's, you must also strengthen your back

[MissB]

MIeventer, thank you so much for your wonderful posts. As a rider who sometimes feels like I was never taught any proper riding fundamentals during my lessons as a teenager (and have subsequently realized I have a TON to learn), I copied and printed out both of your terrific last posts. Thank you!

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by AmyZ

I'm loving this thread! So much fantastic advice! And I'm sorry, I really don't want to be a thread stealer, but I'm a little confused about how to use my 'seat' correctly and 'working back to front'. It seems to be a rather fundamental concept I just haven't grasped yet.

Does this mean urging her forward with seat and legs? How about rising trot? How do I use my 'seat' then?

One way to use your seat at the posting trot is this: visualize that your seat, and the saddle, are velcro. When you sit, you are stuck to the "velcro". When you post, you break free by pulling the horse's back up with you. But, to do this effectively, you must be posting in a forward and back movement, not the ol' "up down" movement. And, you are not posting big, you are posting smaller, but very clearly, as in, none of what I see some doing as a little shuffle. Some post by just sort of touching down in the saddle and coming out again - you have no influence with your seat. But neither do you want to be banging down because that will cause the horse to hollow to get away from you. You sit softly but completely, and pulllllll his back up with your butt when you come up again.

As for your leg influence - make sure that you have him hot off your leg. You cannot get into a habit of nagging every stride or ever other stride. If he slows, ask him to go forward again, back it up with your whip if necessary, then leave him alone when he does. You might have to do this every 5 seconds for a bit, but keep it to when you have to ask him, don't just keep asking just to prevent him from slowing. He'll learn that if he slows, he'll get asked again, so he'll stop slowing.

If I do lots of serpentines, transitions, hill work and all other excellent exercises mentioned above, will she eventually start bring her hind legs underneath her more automatically? Or is there something more I need to do?

It's all contingent upon doing them correctly. This means the haunches aren't falling out, the shoulder isn't popping, she's not over-bent, AND he's engaged behind and relaxed over his topline. So, it's simple in principle, but the harder part comes in not only knowing what correct feels like, but knowing what to do to get to correct. That's the harder part.

Originally Posted by bratt79

To all involved in this thread, nobody is stealing this thread, the more you post, the more I learn and ask questions myself. I just returned to my computer to find 2 more pages of info so it took me a bit to catch up on my reading. I have usually only been a trail rider so this seat riding, impulsion and so forth is kind of new to me. I am going to have to try and take it slow and as I go keep asking questions. When the weather gets better I am going to try and track down a WP trainer and take some lessons to help the both of us.

Questions are the best way to learn, aside from hands on

Originally Posted by AmyZ

Thanks very much bratt79 I do feel a bit stupid asking these silly questions though.

I think I'm actually confused over the term 'seat'. Is this just a polite term for a*s, or does it actually mean a*s plus legs?

I think I might be starting to understanding EVOO's explanation though, thanks EVOO

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by MIEventer

I believe every muscle is connected to another. Without one, you loose the other.

You rock onto your crotch, you not only loose your core - but you loose your center of balance -

Actually....one does not "lose" their core muscles bending over....the muscle contract.

You do not lose the centre of balance from bending, you lose longitudinal or lateral balance points ....but....only if the seat is mis aligned.

Core muscle may help by "holding" the rider centred....but balance is not always dicatated by the core.

the lower back hollows and your balace goes out the front and you loose your core.

Again....one does not lose the core, they simply have it stretched and somewhat ineffective.

You roach your lower back, you've now over emphasised your core and your seat is now heavier. Your center balance gushes out the back.

Yesssss........or......this has the rider lifting/tucking/perching the seatbone or doing none of these....depend on the degree.

Still....the core has no bearing on the weight aids until they are activated....which is when these muscles are generated to use.

Balance and alignment are not always affected either, supplenes and rider flexibility are....these are two differring rider issues that affecr each person individually....and not always with the core muscles as the base of the problem

You not only have to have a strong core to be an effective rider - but you also have to have a strong lower back that is flexible.

By riding on all 3 points of your seat, keeping your lower back strait - your core has more functionallity. You also have balance.

Your core and lower back and seat also decipher where your upper body is.

They are all connected. Like that tune "the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone, the thigh bone is connected to the, hip bone" lol.

Think of that with your muscles and body parts while riding.

Here is a great article about rider fitness and core:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_eM...result#PPR6,M1

I believe that without one, you cannot have the other.


While sitting in your chair. Sit up like you would in the saddle. Sit on all 3 points with your lower back strait.

Now, rock onto your crotch, and hollow out your lower back. You've lost your core - you cannot feel it as much as you did when your lower back was strait and on all 3 points of your seat.

I can feel my abs contract and the muscles along them contracting as well.....this is equivalent to a soft sit up.

Also....many riders over fences are in this position without losing any core muscle, balance or alignment issues....again...suppleness may be evffected....but not always the others.

Try to activate your core on your crotch with your lower back hollowed out.

I am able to contract each muscle individually as well as move my shoulder, rotate my neck, move my legs.....without eve moving my seat off the chair......much like using my back to aid mu shoulders in two point while jumping a course that requires me to ride more off the body then seat and leg alone would give....especially since the seat bone is not being used as an active weight aids

Now do the same when on all 3 points and lower back strait.

I find a big difference.

They are all connected.


THE BACK CANNOT BE EFFECTIVE WITHOUT A CORE.

Yes it can....plain and simple....it will not ba as strong without the support of the core....but it is effective.

On many soft or green horses with unmuscled backs, I often use a light back with an inactive core for softness.

A riders back is strong enough to carry an individual around....but the core adds to the strength and balance of it...that is for sure.

Me.....I do prefer to have correctly placed and powered cores


When doing ab exercises - you cannot build strong abs, without a strong back. You have a large belly, you effect your lower back strength.

You cannot only do sit up's, you must also strengthen your back

It is all contected yes....but the core muscles are not attached to the seat.

They may all work in conjuntion, support and aid other muscles and be attached by tendons, ligaments, suspenseries, but these muscles are not attached together and our newer greener members might not understand the difference when articulated as one whole unit.

[MIEventer]

Sally Swift talks allot about the core and lower back and how it effects our centered riding.

[EVOO]

I have to agree with farmeress here, by adjusting the position of the seat you do not lose core support or even necessarily effectiveness. If this were the case we would lose all effectiveness with any application of seat aids - which is essentially the slight adjustment of position and weightedness of the seat.

And while all of our muscles are interconnected it's also more than possible to isolate and use each area independently of one another and still acheive certain desire results and in some instances not at all lose the effective application of those other areas. I immediately think of bellydancing, a hobby of mine, the art is all about the isolation of muscles and their independent use of one another and it's done without losing the effectiveness and/or strength in the other muscles areas.

I agree 100% that proper riding is a combination of leg, core, back and seat muscles all applied effectively however, to say that one cannot apply one effectively without apply another at the same time is not wholly correct. You can isolate and use just your seat, or just your back, or just your core without losing balance, strength, etc.