[Bluwind_Acres]

I read it but I didn't understand some of it. im usually a visual learner so im abit dense... but the hill work I can certianly do (he doesnt ride yet). we have some nice sand hills to use

[MIEventer]

Understandable - that is where an Educated Coach comes into factor. Much easier to learn when you have someone there one on one working with you.

Your body in the saddle plays an important - the most importat - factor to getting a horse to move functionally.

Your seat, your legs, your hands, your heels, your upper body - all have to be playing a part in this role of "true collection"

I bet JBandRio would be really great at helping you out with this - I am a visual learner as well, so reading words goes in one word and out the other.

I can read a book, and have to read the same paragraph 5 times before it makes any sense.

So I am with you.

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Fair enough back to you But, I'll counter again - there is "collection" as in "not strung out", and there is "collection" as in a Dressage piaffe. And, if the person knows the principles of collection but not the application, then saying "get her working in a collected frame" could cause the reader to skip all the basic steps of getting a horse properly collected

[Horse_Addiction]

I don't necessarily think you have to have exact proper collection/riding before the horse can properly build up muscle. All styles of riding have different riding 'properness' if you will. I don't try to 'properly' sit and ride when doing our excersies and my mare has an excellent muscle build. We do lots of going up and down hills. She builds it up really nicely....

[Bluwind_Acres]

See now here im stealing the thread *sigh*

yeah I was working with a WP/HUS trainer we were working on my seat. now is getting 'in frame' and collecting the same I mean we were asking for impulstion from the rear. (at the jog) I was sitting 'deep' in the saddle then pushing my hipbones forward like an almost silent 'post' (I was riding a greenie), without actually posting and the tapping of my heels to 'pick up' the rib cage to get them to 'bow' into the saddle (cause the horse was hollowing out on every 'down' stride and picking up the inside rein to remind them to keep thier shoulder from dropping. I may know what you're talking about I'm prolly just not connecting the dots. lol.

[EVOO]

Uh Oh. Now we've both confused the semi-lurkers. LOL!

Simple hill work won't do it, he has to use himself properly on the hills. Some horses - if they don't know how to use themselves - will pull themselves along up the hill using their forehand rather than pushing themselves up with their hind-end which only makes matters worse.

The horse needs to understand how to give to the bit so that he isn't leaning on it and you're not trying to hold him in with your hands. You have to be able to ride him with light contact.

With the horse not leaning on the bit and you not holding his face back - riding with light contact at the walk - encourage him to engage his hindquarters with impulsion - if he truly moves along with impulsion it'll naturally engage the hindquarters and he'll reach under himself more to push himself along. At the same time using your legs to encourage a lift of the ribs - and therefore his back. He shouldn't rush forward heavy into your hands, rather he should bring his hind under himself and round up in order to fit the impulsion of the stride into the frame of body you're asking for.

If he quits moving along with impulsion at anytime ask for it back again. Don't allow him to simply quicken the pace; moving his frontend out of the way of his backend and therefore disengaging his hind again. Bring him back to the original pace of the walk and ask for it again, you should be able to feel his hind drop and round and the power shift from front to back.

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by Horse_Addiction

I don't necessarily think you have to have exact proper collection/riding before the horse can properly build up muscle. All styles of riding have different riding 'properness' if you will. I don't try to 'properly' sit and ride when doing our excersies and my mare has an excellent muscle build. We do lots of going up and down hills. She builds it up really nicely....

True....but no matter the discipline....if a horse does not have an relaxed longitudinal flexion through the back, there is no possible way to fully engage the hindend.

I do not use collection myself when establishing the back muscles.

I prefer long and low to medium contact while establishing true paces without toe drag.

Be it through transitions, pole work, lateral work (yes....lateral work and be done long and low since it is really about seat/leg aids supported by the back and core muscles with the reins as balancing guides only)

I find trying to collect a horse that is not fit is only asking for future back/stifle/hock problems.

But most of all and this is my true about collecting young green horses too soon.... because lately..... every project problem horse is doing this......they become stilted in the walk, inconsitant in the contact and square the shoulders dragging the hind end in on a corner/circle , do not walk forward and hollow out at the wither while fipping their head

Sorry....I do feel better....but again....with collection....it is like JB said

[EVOO]

Originally Posted by farmeress

I find trying to collect a horse that is not fit is only asking for future back/stifle/hock problems.

Hey, not arguing at all just more curious than anything about this bit.

So, reiterating that JB is infact correct about collection and there is most certainly different levels and different types of collection - do you believe collection even in the simplest as in "not strung out" is asking for those physical ailments or that asking for more complex/thorough collection is? Or both?

I can see where it could be a problem, but honestly if you're working the horse to his/her level - I most definitely wouldn't take a 3 year old greenie out and ask for grand prix level dressage collection, nor an unfit 10 year old - where do you believe the problem stems from? Or is it simply a matter of pushing the horses too far, too fast and/or working past their level of ability?

Again, not arguing - I can see the implications myself in certain circumstances - simply wondering exactly in which circumstances you believe it to be an issue or most significantly an issue.

[AmyZ]

Originally Posted by MIEventer

For a horse to get a Top Line - that takes a long process of consistant, persistant and correct riding from back to front.

Seat To Legs To Hands.

.........

Your seat comes first to get the back end working accordingly. Then your legs come second to ride the ribs and lift the back. The topline then can be focused on beacuse the muscles through the pol to the hind end are being activated.

Your seat plays a big part - your seat not only has to be functional *al 3 points.....two seat bones and crotch* but focusing on freeing the back to beable to lift - by allowing all your weight to distribute through your upper body down into your heels.

The back end has to be working, the horse has to be tracking up, then the back can lift.

........

I'm loving this thread! So much fantastic advice! And I'm sorry, I really don't want to be a thread stealer, but I'm a little confused about how to use my 'seat' correctly and 'working back to front'. It seems to be a rather fundamental concept I just haven't grasped yet.

Does this mean urging her forward with seat and legs? How about rising trot? How do I use my 'seat' then?

If I do lots of serpentines, transitions, hill work and all other excellent exercises mentioned above, will she eventually start bring her hind legs underneath her more automatically? Or is there something more I need to do?

Any help would be much appreciated but maybe best to message me so I don't take over the thread? Thanks heaps

[bratt79]

To all involved in this thread, nobody is stealing this thread, the more you post, the more I learn and ask questions myself. I just returned to my computer to find 2 more pages of info so it took me a bit to catch up on my reading. I have usually only been a trail rider so this seat riding, impulsion and so forth is kind of new to me. I am going to have to try and take it slow and as I go keep asking questions. When the weather gets better I am going to try and track down a WP trainer and take some lessons to help the both of us.