[CowGirlUp1833]

Wow...I'm pretty sure I'll need some more coffee before understanding all of this.

BUT, it LOOKS like this is a thread about repsonsible breeding and THAT is something I'm 10000% in favor of!

[wyldterv]

Originally Posted by ryu2832

I completely agree. I do not believe in the mutt myth. EquineRepro does--the quotes didn't copy over correctly when I started the new thread.

Sorry I just quoted as it was in the original post... Being a life long dog fancier and a very serious committed breeder of quality, healthy as possible dogs and now horses, hearing that old myth is a huge 'hot button' to me .

There is one thing I am looking for to add to this topic... Three years ago the International Society of Scientists (I think that's the correct name, Roger's not home to verify for me, hehe) had their yearly international conference in Seattle, WA and Roger, my sig other, being a serious scientist, was attending for work. Some of the lectures were available to the public as well as Society members, some were 'members only'... Roger was able to obtain tickets for me to a general AND a 'members only' lecture series on genetic diversity and the main speaker is not only one of the more renouned gentic scientists, she's also a very serious dog fancier and breeder of top Beagles.

In her lecture she presented several studies that showed how NOT discriminatingly linebreeding and inbreeding can cause LESS genetic diversity in a species because you get no good (or bad) concentration of genetic lines. Instead you just keep getting 'floating issues' that crop up 'unsuspectingly' when two different pedigrees that happen to both be carriers 'click'.. this happens for good AND bad genetic influences.

By linebreeding and discriminatingly inbreeding you can concentrate particular traits you want, can verify what traits exist in the line you do NOT want and can then look for strongly bred lines that compliment what you have and are lacking the things you're trying to be rid of, there by creating an entirely NEW genetic strong base in a 'new line' which ultimately creates MORE genetic diveristy.

The lecture series was accompanied by tons of study notes etc and was VERY interesting and reinforced what my own personal experience had been teaching me for years.

The KEY to creating a healthy, sound (physically and mentally), typey 'line' with in a breed is to NOT be afraid to strongly linebreed and OCCASSIONAL inbreed, then be HONEST with yourself and others, with the results you're getting, good and not so good. THEN after going in a few times into the same pedigree you need to look for a strongly linebred pedigree that compliments your pedigree and go OUT, hopefully (and usually, if you've done your homework carefully) you end up keeping the traits you want that you like and decreasing the traits you have that you do NOT want.

One other thing I'll point out... When breeding dogs, you generally have more then 1 puppy. You have a better representation of what genetic influences exist in the pedigree when you have 6-8 puppies to view, track as they mature and then reproduce.

In horses, you can, at most, only get one (on RARE occassion two live foals) per year out of any one breeding. You can not fully assume that you will consistently get the good that shows up in one or even two or even four breedings in a row of the same two parents as the next 10 breedings may all be disasters for all you truly know, so in horses it is a much slower, more difficult process to know for certain what is strong (good OR bad) in a line and what is not.

By taking the time to research back as far as you can (for instance, I know horses in Dancer's pedigree that were born in the 60's and being used when I was first in Arabians in the late 70's and early 80's so at least I have an idea of what those lines have been producing for some time!) and then trying to match lines that are strong for the traits you're wanting, you increase your chance of gettting those traits and hopefully avoiding traits that you don't want.

One thing that I know for certain, until you can do a 100% full genetic screen for all POSSIBLE genetic conditions on a sire and a dam, you'll still have the potential to produce serious health issues, no matter HOW careful you are to not. When you DO have an issue crop up that is serious, don't beat yourself up, don't hide it either, study it, try to understand where it came from and build on from there.

One of the best things learned from indentifying SCIDS in Arabians was that you do NOT throw the baby out with the bath water... instead you test and breed around the issue.

You do NOT throw out all carriers from a breeding program, but you DO use them responsibly. I would not have Elle' today if no carriers were ever used by breeders as her grandsire is a carrier, yet was bred to a non-carrier and broduced a non-carrier offspring.

I LOVE testing as it then enables me to use a dog or horse that I might suspect to be a carrier and would otherwise be concerned about using since I don't want to risk carrier to carrier breedings myself. But if I can breed a carrier to a non-carrier then at worst I'll only get carriers, not affecteds, that is something that I personally can live with happily and of course any potential buyer knows up front about the carrier status of the animal they're considering purchasing.

In the end, breeding is a huge gamble no matter HOW much research, testing, etc you put into it. If you do not have extremely thick skin and the ability to not take everything extremely personally, you'll have a very hard time making it as a serious breeder as it IS heartbreaking when something you planned for so carefully turns out less the totally perfect.

I myself love the challenges of breeding and love seeing my hard work pay off in not only the conformation ring(in dogs) but in the SAR (Search and Rescue) dogs I've produced, the Assistance dogs I've produced, the Therapy dogs I've produced, etc... The full package.

I am working on the same thing with my Arabian breeding program... a horse that can excel in the halter ring AND then in the performance pen. Time will tell if Elle' meets my expectations, but so far, we appear to be on the right track.

[ryu2832]

Originally Posted by Equine Repro

When a mare foals and the foals dies within let's say a week of birth, how many of those mare owners do you think have a necropsy on the foal? I dunno...I have seen the train wrecks that do result!

I would..

Originally Posted by Equine ReproEveryone thought it was the latest greatest solution to all that was wrong with corn. The problem? It caused some kind of problem with the native butterflies in the area. And, for those of you who might shrug and say "so"?. The butterflies were part of what was pollinating the corn. No butterflies, lower production of corn. That example was interesting and I wish I could remember where the research was on it, but it does give one pause in that you HAVE to look to the future as well as what just hits the ground.
[/quote

Gaah, I hate defending these guys... In considerable pain here.

So most likely the compound is Trangenic Bt. Bt is a pesticide organic farmers have been applying to crops for years. Corn doesn't use an insect intermediary for pollenation. Conservation records indicate that the butterfly populations have gone up every year since transgenic Bt was introduced, why? Less corn borer moths competing for food. There was probably a large reduction in CB moths, but the butterflies are just fine.

Bleeding from my soul to defend them....ow...ow...ow .

Let me know which pedigrees cause nausea:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sternlicht2
Aaf Summer Breeze Arabian
Tigre Trakehner
Inschallah Hanoverian

Hmmm...not a great example, see Inschallah's pedigree above. InschallahxFuriosoII would be a Linebred x Hybrid cross and a lovely example of overdominance.

Here's an example from the Trakehners. Carino E* x Palma Nigra E* (Habicht). There are 4 approved sons from that cross.

Not a leap for them I think, they invented it.

I don't think it is a location thing, I think it is a trend thing. Statistical Prepotency in Trakehner stallions is down about 10% in the last 10 years. Linebreeding has gotten a bad wrap because it was used by some inappropriately.

I think also there is a trend towards only breeding to the best performance record irregardless of breeding value.