[sarahhowen]

Hi guys,

A while ago I posted about a few issues I have been having with my 8 month old filly Varla. Now Varla was an oops baby and I am the first to admit that I am having to learn as I go, we are making mistakes but we are learning as we go..........Now I wanted to post about our little "training session" yesterday and the problem that we had so I could get your perspective and advice on what I should be doing with her.

Now I have been limited in the work I can do with her recently as she lives out with my other mare and the fields have been toooo muddy to safely do much, we are moving her to a place with better facilities and an arena so the real work will start then.

Now Varla will behave herself really well 95% of the time and then just occasionally she will be downright horrible, I have tied a lot of this down to food aggression as I allowed my other mare (the alpha mare) to push Varla off her food and she has now become quite protective of it, My logic was that the Alpha Mare would do this in the wild (a mistake now I realise.........)

Varla now pulls some terrible faces at me when she is eating and threatens to bite, I have started to remidy this by standing close to her when she is eating and verbally reprimanding her faces by saying "NO" and praising her when she shows me her happy ears, also I have started to separate them at feed times so she isn't feeling pressured. She is improving massively with this and we are seeing a lot more of the happy ears than the nasty ones!

Now yesterday we had a little training session, I decided that as the weather was good and the field was relitively dry I would spend some time with her. I tied her up, groomed her all over, did her feet sprayed a bottle around her ears (not in her ears - just around them so she is used to the sound) She even stood with me when a bus that had been diverted down our county lane skidded to a halt about 10 ft away from her - she was terrified but stood with me and didn't run.

I then literally untied her lead her away from where I had been grooming her and the c0w bit me! I was so mad with her, I smacked her on the sholder with a firm "no" and made her do a few more minutes of inhand work and ended on a good note but its sooooo frustrating that she can be soooooooo good and then spoil it because she feels the need to be a brat.

Now did I handle this situation in the right way or should I have done something more. I don't want her to be afraid of me but I do want her respect.

In understand that she is going to have these "Brat-ish" moments due to her age but I also understand that this bad behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud.

So suggestions please.......................................

[StarfireArizona]

My now almost 2 year old colt was something I wasn't expecting....and my first. As your little girl, he was a saint 99% of the time.....with little outbursts as well. They are just testing us....

You did exactly as I had done, only I made him yield his hindquarters for a about 15 seconds as well. And if he didn't move his hiney away fast enough, I smacked it with the end of the lead. When I did allow him to rest, his head was low & he was licking & chewing. There were very few "incidents". Now that he is coming up to 2 years, entering into his terrible twos, he occasionally does nonsense things he never did before. And my response is even more assertive. Bigger horse.....bigger alpha mare

Feeding them separately is always a better idea. Mine retreat to their own stalls to eat, but turned out the rest of the time. Our old gelding must have had to fight for his food before we took him, for he pins his ears and looks behind him as he is walking up to the food. He means nothing by it to us humans, but to another horse it would be an ugly scene. I am sure he has been like this most of his life

[sarahhowen]

Thanks Starfire, it reassuring to hear that I did do the right thing. I'm the first to admit that we were ill prepared to deal with a baby and we are having to learn as we go. Its so frustrating that she can be so good most of the time and then an absolute horror for a few minutes.

What other things did you do with your colt when he was Varla's age, are there any things that you would recommend doing with her???

When we move (end of April) I am planning on introduce some scary things to her, plactic sheets and such but to be quite honest nothing seems to scare her. We had a lady to view my other mare on Sunday and she brought her riding hat in a plastic bag, which she hung on the fence. Varla got the bag in her mouth and start trotting round the field showing off to all and sundry (Tally my other mare was nearly traumatised about this scarey plastic bag coming trotting towards her!

[Berlunz]

Originally Posted by sarahhowen

Hi guys,

A while ago I posted about a few issues I have been having with my 8 month old filly Varla. Now Varla was an oops baby and I am the first to admit that I am having to learn as I go, we are making mistakes but we are learning as we go..........Now I wanted to post about our little "training session" yesterday and the problem that we had so I could get your perspective and advice on what I should be doing with her.

Now I have been limited in the work I can do with her recently as she lives out with my other mare and the fields have been toooo muddy to safely do much, we are moving her to a place with better facilities and an arena so the real work will start then.

Now Varla will behave herself really well 95% of the time and then just occasionally she will be downright horrible, I have tied a lot of this down to food aggression as I allowed my other mare (the alpha mare) to push Varla off her food and she has now become quite protective of it, My logic was that the Alpha Mare would do this in the wild (a mistake now I realise.........)

There was no mistake here, she will have to learn the pecking order one way or another and its better to learn it while she is small and horses will take it easier on her then when she is big and they decide they wont tolerate her.

Varla now pulls some terrible faces at me when she is eating and threatens to bite, I have started to remidy this by standing close to her when she is eating and verbally reprimanding her faces by saying "NO" and praising her when she shows me her happy ears, also I have started to separate them at feed times so she isn't feeling pressured. She is improving massively with this and we are seeing a lot more of the happy ears than the nasty ones!

This does not sound like food aggression because she was chased off, this sounds like she is claiming the food because she knows she can chase YOU off, or at the very least thinks it. If anything she would need more time with some mares who would teach her that she is not the top of the pecking order. If she pinned her ears at me I would chase her off the food. Thats not food aggression thats dominance. She doesnt eat until she behaves. This has always been a big thing with my horses because I get very VERY annoyed by a horse who pins their ears at you, takes food out of your hands or crowds your space while feeding.

Now yesterday we had a little training session, I decided that as the weather was good and the field was relitively dry I would spend some time with her. I tied her up, groomed her all over, did her feet sprayed a bottle around her ears (not in her ears - just around them so she is used to the sound) She even stood with me when a bus that had been diverted down our county lane skidded to a halt about 10 ft away from her - she was terrified but stood with me and didn't run.


I then literally untied her lead her away from where I had been grooming her and the c0w bit me! I was so mad with her, I smacked her on the sholder with a firm "no" and made her do a few more minutes of inhand work and ended on a good note but its sooooo frustrating that she can be soooooooo good and then spoil it because she feels the need to be a brat.

Babies go through a testing phase and a biting phase when their mouth is changing. Your job is to figure out what reaction she best responds too. Neither of my horses handle hitting, both for different reasons. My older one thinks its a game and if you hit him he goes into bite game mode. But if you shove him over he drops it. My younger one has the biggest suck up personality and if you even yell at him or get after him he basically looks like you just beat the life out of him. I hit him once when he was younger and he did not react well. So figuring out how your horse is going to respond to what punishment is best. Hitting may or may not work, if it does then congrats if not there are other methods. My older horse gets shoved at the shoulders or chased off then he sulks in the corner and gets over it. My younger horse mostly just has to be LOOKED at in that "You are in so much trouble" way and he straightens up pretty quick.

Now did I handle this situation in the right way or should I have done something more. I don't want her to be afraid of me but I do want her respect.

Whether or not this is the right solution will remain to be seen, if she keeps biting and the smacking doesnt seem to make a difference one way or the other then its time to try something else. But it could be the right solution but how you handled the situation is a pretty common way to handle that situation, how well it works has yet to be seen.

In understand that she is going to have these "Brat-ish" moments due to her age but I also understand that this bad behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud.

Yep, and you need to remember that about the feeding thing as well. What she is doing may be somewhat caused by the fact that she had another mare chasing her off her food but her reaction is NOT acceptable. She has decided that the pecking order is Alpha mare, her, you, and her and alpha mare get to eat and you get to stay away. Although you aren't actually going to eat the food you need to let her know that "I can and will take this food away if you dont behave so you better"

So suggestions please.......................................

too short apparently

[sarahhowen]

Thanks Berlunz, So to clarify with the eating thing, I should take the food off her until she shows some respect? I sense a big battle coming up here - which is fine, I really don't mind having the "discussion" with her if it will help with the ugly faces.

Its difficult to assess the whole pecking order as the food thing is the only time she generally trys to show any dominence towards me, generally she will yield to any pressure back up out of my space and is generally quite good, its just the food thing which I associated being to do with the other mare shoving her off her feed,

I do also have the problem that my other half keeps sneaking her treats which isn't helping, I have told him and told him to stop, but he does sneak a crafty few in when he is with her so that may also not be helping with the whole biting issue!!

Thanks again Berlunz, if you could clarify the feed removal thing then that would be great

[StarfireArizona]

Originally Posted by sarahhowen

Thanks Starfire, it reassuring to hear that I did do the right thing. I'm the first to admit that we were ill prepared to deal with a baby and we are having to learn as we go. Its so frustrating that she can be so good most of the time and then an absolute horror for a few minutes.

What other things did you do with your colt when he was Varla's age, are there any things that you would recommend doing with her???

When we move (end of April) I am planning on introduce some scary things to her, plactic sheets and such but to be quite honest nothing seems to scare her. We had a lady to view my other mare on Sunday and she brought her riding hat in a plastic bag, which she hung on the fence. Varla got the bag in her mouth and start trotting round the field showing off to all and sundry (Tally my other mare was nearly traumatised about this scarey plastic bag coming trotting towards her!

I got my first horse 3 years ago, and he was more than a handful 5 year old OTTB. Then my daughter got an old gelding QH...but of course never had time to take care of him....so I already have 2. I bought my mare to ride while I trained the OTTB, only to find out she had major trust issues...so now I am working my tail off with 3. THEN I discover my mare is pregnant, and now I have FOUR !!....one being a baby. ALL within a year and a half !!! I was not ready for a foal & was a nervous wreck on how to raise one. There were days I was so overwhelmed.....but I asked lotsa questions on this forum, watched a lot of Clint Anderson videos, and the rest came fairly easy. Now he is a very clingy, affectionate as a horse can be, 2 year old....who does anything I ask. I don't regret one moment I spent working with or loving on him

She is going to test you the older she gets. As I said, my baby was so good I couldn't believe it. The few incidents were easily quelled. But now that he is over 900 pounds at 23 months, it is a bit more of a challenge. A couple months ago, within a couple weeks time, he was face to face with me & tried to bite me in the face.....then there was the kick out when I was cleaning his feet....and then the grabbing of clothes. All acts were dealt with immediately & there was no doubt in his mind he crossed the line. Since then, he is back to being my little saint

I did so much with him from day one......starting with imprinting a couple hours after he was born. Here is a link to the thread I posted when he was 6 months old: Weanling Groundwork

Just spend time with her Sarah.....and let her know when she does something you don't like. I am not one who likes to "hit" an animal, but a smack on the shoulder is just a hint they are doing something they shouldn't or know better than to try. You've got the right idea

[Berlunz]

Originally Posted by sarahhowen

Thanks Berlunz, So to clarify with the eating thing, I should take the food off her until she shows some respect? I sense a big battle coming up here - which is fine, I really don't mind having the "discussion" with her if it will help with the ugly faces.

For me when a horse pins their ears or does something to get me away from their food I make them move away from the food and I "claim" it. Once they are not being snots about it then I move away from the food and then they get it. Right now her ugly faces are going "Its my food I am charge!" and while you are saying no it doesnt tell her "No you're NOT in charge and I CAN take the food". It just says "Hey dont pin your ears at me!" Which may or may not stop her attitude but it wont stop her from thinking "I am in charge its my food"

Its difficult to assess the whole pecking order as the food thing is the only time she generally trys to show any dominence towards me, generally she will yield to any pressure back up out of my space and is generally quite good, its just the food thing which I associated being to do with the other mare shoving her off her feed,

Horses will not typically show dominance in all areas across the board, the fact that she bit you shows that her dominance issues could be spreading to more than just food. They typically "test" the waters with the small things. It would be like you figuring out how much you could get away with. You never start out by doing the big bad things you start with little things and work your way up seeing how far you can take it. Now it may have started something with the other mare shoving her off her food. It may have taught her there was a pecking order, which is a good thing. But she has taken it upon herself to make her "second in command" of the food pecking order and you are now third in command. An attitude like this could get her in big trouble in a herd environment

I do also have the problem that my other half keeps sneaking her treats which isn't helping, I have told him and told him to stop, but he does sneak a crafty few in when he is with her so that may also not be helping with the whole biting issue!!

I wouldnt encourage him to stop per se, I dont know what it is about men but they feel the need to give horses things because they feel bad for them. But I would instead give him alternatives. Say "you can give her a treat if its IN the bucket." Or make her earn the treat. For my older horse who was very nippy if I hand feed treats I make him flex his neck to his side. So I take the treat and I tap his side somewhere and he stretches his neck around and gets the treat that way. So its not immediately associating hand=treat its more if he sees or smells a treat he waits for the cue then does it so its trick=treat.

Thanks again Berlunz, if you could clarify the feed removal thing then that would be great
Just move her off the food so she cant reach it and isnt invading your space. The way I would do it, since it sounds like she is good at ground manners and yielding is to get up in her space and make her yield out of yours. Everytime she makes that face you make her move off. Everytime she doesnt pet her, add a treat to the pile of food etc. You want her to know that behaving well means she gets to eat and gets rewarded but her trying to say "ITS MY FOOD BACK OFF!" gets her no food period. Once she is not pushing or making faces, you move away from the food towards her and pet her and let her have the food again.

too short again

[Berlunz]

Oh and I forgot to add body language is very crucial at this time. When chasing her off the food you want the "I am in charge back off" body language but when you go to reward have a more nuetral body language that says "Okay you can have it now". The reason for this is you dont want her to run off her food everytime someone steps near her, you just want to teach her that you can and will push her away from her food if she acts up. When you first approach her with her food have the nuetral body language but if she makes the faces switch to "I am in charge, back off" then back to calm and nuetral when she behaves. Its really that you are trying to teach her to not act that way by showing her when she does you will step up your game rather than you want to chase her off her food all the time. Your goal is to teach her that This attitude=this reaction from me as opposed to "I am going to steal your food all the time" which may be part of the problem here.

[sarahhowen]

Thanks Berlunz,

This certainly gives me something to work on with her, I am really looking forward to moving her so we can start doing more with her, I do feel with more consistant work she will improve even more. I will start doing as you suggested Berlunz and update you with how I get on with her.

I do understand the importance of the clarity of body language, I Try to make myself very strong in my body language when she is being naughty and softer when she is being good.

Yesterday after I had put her out after the training session She started winneying longingly towards me when I was tiding up, she seemed to understand she had been naughty and wanted a fuss which she wasn't getting, overall she is sweet - Honest !

[sarahhowen]

Thanks for the link Starfire...................i'm off to look at it now