[Blistering Winds]

I've heard it many times here in the forum, and in actual face to face discussions. people always forget bloodlines do NOT make a horse.

Performance is NOT highly inheritable. Color, Muscling Ability, hoof angles, PHYSICAL attributes are HIGHLY inheritable. But mental is NOT HIGH on the list of heritibility.

You can take 2 of the most Intelligent horses and produce the stupidest thing to ever hit the ground.

You can take two of the fastest horses.....and produce something that if it attempted to run, he'd be running BACKWARDS!

So Performance Bloodlines should NOT be 100% the basis of your breeding program, though TB owners think this (that is why the TB speeds have not changed in many many years...)

Performance has a lot to do with actual LIFE experiences. From trainers to handlers to feeders. Shoot, what they eat can make or break the mind of a horse.


I have a mare here, has Hancock and San Peppy Badger Blood lines. I hear people talk of breeding her to some reining champion to produce an awesome horse! I look at her and laugh. She is toed out severely in the front and minor in the back. She doesn't "FIT" right together, but she's a cute thing! Intelligent as well. (too smart lately), but looking at her, she cannot perform HERSELF at higher levels because of her physical issues. Structurally, she does not move correctly for Reining, cutting, Western Pleasure, etc. But yet, because of her great blood lines, they are considering her for a future broodmare!

Same with that club footed stallion. He is clubbed in BOTH HIS BACK FEET! One more severe than the other! yet his lines are impeckable supposively for roping and reining......yet if he tried to spin, I can see his leg SNAPPING because his hoof angle is not correct for anything. I don't even see him staying SOUND as I go through getting him broke to ride.

Man PEOPLE, LOOK TO CONFORMATION! Look to things like that. Bloodlines do play some part, but it isn't the WHOLE of things!! Because very little "PERFORMANCE" has to do with actual genetics. yes the ability is there, but without conformation, all the training in the world will not help them.

[*BaRrEL_BaBE*]

Okay how about this then: There's a stallion at the barn who has an amazing body and absolutely amazing breeding(you couldn't ask for better). He's got all the physical and background wants. However, he's funny on the ground. He's very nervous with his feet(sometimes even has to be drugged to get shod) and he's skittish. I've been told he's been like that since he was young. Would this be one to pass by or not?

[Blistering Winds]

I would say that is a "TRAINING" issue. He sounds like a horse who had a bad experience and no one has gotten him over that "hump" of being scared about his feet.

That is very LOW LOW LOW on the inheritability tables, so if everything else that you need and want (including conformation), then go for it. Mind you your mare will contribute as well, Conformationally etc.

And don't just look ot the horse, look to the parents, the grandparents of the horses. Just because two ugly horses produced a gorgeous thing, doesn't mean those particular genetics will pass.....as the Ugly genes may still be lurking in the genetics.

The combining of different genes also make things that you wouldn't think of. Some aspects take 20 pieces of DNA to make it. So getting the right "combonation" is harder than just looking going I like him, I like her....breed them and for some reason, the foal looks NOTHING like the parents.....what happened? GENE COMBINATIONS. the 20 pieces of DNA that it takes to make the area you were hoping to gather from both parents didn't line up the way you wanted.....so basically, it is a game of chance, no matter how educated, how knowledgeable you are about genetics...etc.

[shell]

breeding is a gamble no matter what. If you want to breed horses, your gonna have to take chances.

[harli36]

Bw I couldn't agree with you more. If you don't mind me adding...

Barrel babe while that stallion most definetly learned that behavior his genetics could have made it easier for him to learn. Say there are genes in his personallity that code for skitishness(which in my own experience is VERY inheritable) then maybe it would only have taken him a light smack from the farrier to make him forever be skittish about his feet. As opposed to a horse that has inherited calmness from his parents and it would take a blow from a hammer(very very wrong of course) to get him not to like his feet being touched. Personally if that particular stallion shows any other skittish behaviors I wouldn't breed to him. I would look for a stally that has all of his qualities minus the skitishness.

Another pet peeve of mine is when people look at a stallions accomplishments and decide wether or not to breed to him because of his ribbons and trophy's. Now don't get me wrong this is a very good contributing factor to make him more valuable as a stallion. But there are TONS of excellent stallions out there who don't have a huge showing career. In fact there is an excellent stallion that belongs to friends of mine. He has excellent conformation and passes it on and he is the most well mannered stallion that I have ever come across. His owners don't show simply because they don't like showing. There are many in the Morgan breed like that. These horses are more often than not used as working horses. Owners don't have time to show off the good horses they are working. That or the areas where the horses are kept are just too remote to get heavy into showing. Plus like BW said performance has been proven to not be an inheritable trait. IMO show records should be considered icing on the cake, not a determing factor but good if it is there.

[sher327]

So what about a horse like the Arabian Beh Shah? Do you think his personality traits were genetic or handling or both/neither? I've had people tell me I was crazy to buy one of his sons because they all "inherited" his snort and blow attitude and they weren't safe to be around.

[Blistering Winds]

Personality is somewhat inheritable. Not HIGh, but not low, but on the lower end of happy medium....

You can acquire the most docile creature from two heavy, snorting idiots. And vice versa. But training, handling, and proper experiences can CHANGE personallity much easier than you can change the color of the horse. Because it may be 10% inheritable, but the 90% is learning...so learning CAN overcome a low-inheritable trait. But when color is 99.99999999% inheritable, and yet some say "cold" determines shade (depending on which research paper and animal you read about) ...that would be an environmental experience.

Hair growth is one of those mODERATE heritibilities.....put a wolly horse in South TExas, experience will overcome genetics. And vice versa, as blister has FINALLY grown about 2% more of a coat this year than last year. ....(adaptation overcoming genetics).

[CowGirlUp1833]

Which is why you should just buy the foal you want...IMO (most cases)

[*BaRrEL_BaBE*]

Originally Posted by harli36

Barrel babe while that stallion most definetly learned that behavior his genetics could have made it easier for him to learn. Say there are genes in his personallity that code for skitishness(which in my own experience is VERY inheritable) then maybe it would only have taken him a light smack from the farrier to make him forever be skittish about his feet. As opposed to a horse that has inherited calmness from his parents and it would take a blow from a hammer(very very wrong of course) to get him not to like his feet being touched. Personally if that particular stallion shows any other skittish behaviors I wouldn't breed to him. I would look for a stally that has all of his qualities minus the skitishness.

His owners told me he's been skittish since they first met him. They looked at him as a weanling and he kept running to the opposite side of his mother.

[Blistering Winds]

That is their issue. YES< it is natural to FEAR, he was not handled much as a baby, was allowed to do things, someone may have done something to his mother that made him fear people....there are SOOOO many reasons that could explain it beyond Genetics. Shoot, NOT being handled as a baby can do it as well. Most foals, imprinted or not, go through a stage of hiding behind mommy. And osme of them make the best horses with the right training. It is all in teaching them that things aren't going to eat them...exposing them and helping them work through their phobias.