[tigers_girl]

SORRY THIS IS A LONG ONE! BUT I NEED THE ADVICE SO I WANTED TO GET YOU A GOOD BACKROUND!

So I have had my gelding for 3 years now. He has been on my property with one other boarded horse for company. The first boarded stayed for 1 year (the horses didn't really get along). This next boarder has been here for 2 years now. The boarded horse is a gelding also and is the same age as my gelding. The two get along so well, they are inseparable long-lost twins so cute! We were out on trail often and the 2 geldings got along so well out there and had no problems walking side-by-side or switching up who was the leader or following really close to each others rear end .

For about 1 1/2 months now, my friend has been boarding her mare on my property. My gelding is alpha (13 yrs old) and the other gelding is next (about 12 or 13 yrs old) and the mare is lowest on the totem pole (shes only 3 yrs old and you can tell she needs the guidance and direction). They get along very well together in the pasture that they all share during the day (they are seperated into stalls at night). They play "musical feed piles" all day , the boys showing dominance over the mare by getting to eat first and take the choicest pile of hay. But they get along very well together.

When we get on trail now, it is very different. It doesnt matter if its just me and my gelding and my friend and her mare, or if the other gelding is out too. My gelding has be in the lead. Before, we could change it up and the other gelding would lead sometimes. But now with the new mare, he has to lead. If he gets behind, he starts jigging and prancing. I've tried to control it with controling but soft hands and lots of half-halts and he would sometimes walk or just slow the jig. I also read from a Clinton Anderson book that trying to control it like that just makes him claustraphobic and panic more. So his approach is to take up my gelding's offer to speed up and trot or canter and zig-zag and circle and soon my gelding will realize that the jiggy nonsense means having to work hard and he will take up my offer to walk calmly, easily and politely. So in the arena this approach worked fantastic (i tried it when me and my friend with the mare were both working in the arena, then she had to leave and went back up to the barn and my gelding started jigging). Then on the trail I tried it and he just works up this fast, huge trot or picks up the canter and bucks. The problem with either approach is that my gelding is a Throroughbred and they will run themselves to death if you let them (ex-racer). If he gets determined to get back in the lead, theres no wearing him out phyisically without a lot of time and sweat. He really is the sweetest horse ever and so easy going! This is the only problem I've ever had with him. He's very smart and gets testy in the arena sometimes but all it takes is just a "hey i mean it, we are going to work" and he gives in.

Please help! Ask any other questions you need, ill be online for a while! Thanks in advance!

[MissCriss]

Thanks for being so thorough . You obviously care about the situation.

One thing I noticed...
since the horses are fed in the pasture, are they all getting their required amount of food? Perhaps spread the food apart more so that there will be a little section for each horse.

Secondly, what kind of feed are you feeding them? What kind of hay? Any grain? What you feed your horse can REALLY affect their behavior.

Something that goes along with the aforementioned: How much exercise do these horses get, especially your dominant gelding? If he is overfed and underexercised, this can cause a lot of behavioral problems just because of excess energy and not knowing what to do with it.

Being a TB, especially an OTTB, can play a big part in the scenario. TBs are bred to race and they want to be in front, and unfortunately for you, your horse has already had a taste of what it's like. Out in the open, away from all that is secure and familiar to him, of course he will become harder to control.

The way I see it, it doesn't matter if HE wants to be in front--YOU are his leader. You are his provider and his partner. It should be a partnership and if you ask him "please, listen to me and be patient" he should! No exceptions, even if you have to do some serious convince riding and need to get very firm with him.

Repetitive half halts and circles are only the first steps, and if those aren't working, either your half halts are not as advanced for this situation, or he is not fully trained to respond to them. It may just be that since he is so focused on being in front, that even if you and him are both trained with half halts, that they really are not appropriate for this situation. In my opinion, half halts will only frustrate him and won't be a strong enough of a correction for him. You need something that will take his mind OFF those horses and on YOU.

It may be that he doesn't have quite enough respect for you out on the trails, so I would do some work in the round pen and work on the trail--the place where the problem arises. He can be perfect out in an arena, but unless you get to the root of the problem, it will never go away. The key is that he must respect you and have confidence in you, so always stay calm and affirmative. Do some relationship building exercises and don't treat him like a baby, but as a horse, a sensitive animal that deserves a lot of respect. The most important thing: consistency. Always keep a rhythm and train for short bouts at least five days a week.

If he starts bucking and cantering and it is too much for you, I say get off and do some ground work. Lots of it. Getting off doesn't mean the work's over. He must listen to you because it's important for everyone's safety. Do some side passes, yielding of the hind quarters and forehand, backing up, baby steps forward, carrot stetches, etc. Have him go over obstacles, even. And when he is good and responsive, praise him, and get back on. Really drive the message home that when he is good, the pressure is taken away. Horses work wonderfully on a system of pressure and release as it is basically in their nature.

What I would advice is that at home, set up a routine full of exercises that your horse is good at. Do this short routine whenever you're in the arena to train. When he is not focused on his work, you can go back to this routine on the trail to get his mode into that training mode.

Also, if the problem gets worse or you aren't able to do some serious convince riding that may require you to really sit through his tantrums, I would highly advice getting a trainer to help you so that the problem gets taken care of more efficiently and there is less risk of you getting hurt.

[tigers_girl]

everyone is getting enough food. i do separate their bermuda hay into 3 piles. and they are spread apart. they just like checking out each others feed. i must admit i dont ride as much as i would like. my gelding does need to eat a bit because its a little more difficult for him to keep weight on. i understand everything you are suggesting and he knows i am his leader no matter what.

this leading on the trail think has not been an underlaying problem though, which is why it is puzzling to me. he is totally cool on the trail with the other gelding the entire 2 years we have been trail riding together. it has just come up now that there is a mare!

i really appreciate all your suggestions MissCriss but could i maybe get some other advice? i do understand that most problems have a root and most require going back to the basics, which is why your suggestions are wonderful. i am not looking for a quick fix, i know horses dont work like that, but i would like some more timely suggestions for the issue at hand. thanks again

[dvineequine]

He's very smart and gets testy in the arena sometimes but all it takes is just a "hey i mean it, we are going to work" and he gives in

This should be no different on the trail.
Make him work, do lateral movements at a collected trot on the trail and make him work hard.
Make the trail longer. Leave home at a good clip and get some steam off of the get go.
Let him lead, make him be second, let him be third, then let him lead again.
Sometimes they do this jigging because the (lead) horse is not confident. You said the mare is lowest on the pole as is the other gelding. Heard dynamics still exist in their minds on the trail if the whole heard goes, and he is the head of the heard. You need to establish who is really the leader in his mind and it should be you!
If you truly are the alpha mare you will be able to nip this in the bud but if you aren't and you are hesitant, scared, nervous or angry, he will jig till the cows come home.
Take some of MissCriss's advice and do some groundwork, establish you are the Alpha mare, also Clinton's advice definately helps but if the dynamics aren't there nothing is going to work.

[MissCriss]

Originally Posted by dvineequine

This should be no different on the trail.

if the dynamics aren't there nothing is going to work.

Agreed!!! Horses are always horses.

I wouldn't worry too much about a collected trot on the trail though? It may be difficult to fully engage his back out on the trail due to a number of factors, specifically if he or the rider hasn't been completely coached to do so yet.

[MissCriss]

i understand everything you are suggesting and he knows i am his leader no matter what.

I understand no horse will behave at ALL times, but quite honestly (and please do not take this offensively) I don't think that he thinks you are his leader "no matter what", because he isn't listening to you on the trail, and like dvineequine said, he should know you are leader not only in the arena. It seems like you have a good idea of what to do, however.

i really appreciate all your suggestions MissCriss but could i maybe get some other advice? i do understand that most problems have a root and most require going back to the basics, which is why your suggestions are wonderful. i am not looking for a quick fix, i know horses dont work like that, but i would like some more timely suggestions for the issue at hand. thanks again

Mm, well, unfortunately, I can't really think of much else . I'm not a professional horse trainer so I'm sure there are other things you could do. I really don't know. That is the extent of my knowledge. I'm surprised others have not posted on here yet!

Really, all I know is that to get a horse to stop misbehaving he needs to 1) respect you 2) be responsive to you (which comes with the respect) and to establish that respect, there is only so much you can do with a 1000 pound animal. It's really all in your mindset. If your thoughts and movements are confident, it will "transfer" to your horse. Moving their feet is essentially the key to this, as well as practicing good leadership when on the ground, so, don't let him get away with anything.

The fact that he only does that on the trail WITH the mare makes me agree with what the other poster said...because the mare is not very confident and is in a way sort of challenging his position by taking his usual spot, he gets uncomfortable. As you probably know, horses become insecure when their leaders are not secure themselves.

The only thing I can tell you is that if you can't control him in the saddle when he gets out of hand, get off and really work with him. Bring a whip with you as a tool to move his body easier. Use your voice appropriately. Be calm and soothing when he is good and be gruff and quick when he is about to misbehave. Really, consistency is what is going to fix this, in my opinion.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help . I don't really know of what else would work. I would message someone on the forum here like BruceWiley or Endo.

[Tatooed Lady]

I would think that being consistent with the training on the trail will fix the issue...it might not be clear at first that it's working, but since things are changing (in his mind) with the mare along for the ride, you need to drive it home that he's not to change his program unless YOU say so.
Play leapfrog again. Show him that it's the same thing as before, only with another horse involved. Make him circle when he jigs. Even if it's 3 jig steps, circle, 2 jigging steps, circle, etc. If you're serious that it's not allowed, you have to prove it to him. If not from the saddle, I agree, hop off, but make his feet MOVE. Not in straight lines, make him work in little turns, circles, serpentines, etc. Things that make his mind work along with his little feet!
It sounds like his entire issue right now is he feels that he has to prove to the "new kid" that he's still alpha, even on the trails. He's got enough time to think about it, and to demonstrate to her (and you) that he's serious and MEANS it.
"Lucky you", you get to give him the proverbial slap to the head that says (in no uncertain terms) "You are NOT alpha...*I* am, and don't you forget it!" If you can redirect his mind so he focuses on what YOU want, things should level out. Just don't give up too soon!!! Give ANY training "fix" you're trying some time before you discard it as something that doesn't work...

I'm NOT a trainer...but I've got one that I really like working with, and that's pretty much what she swears by...NOT letting the horse settle down until s/he's behaving properly...and since learning what she's teaching, I've found success as well.

Good luck!

[lvmypnt]

Here is my two cents.............

First off make sure you are out on the trail with a seasoned horse and rider.

Let the other rider go in front and as soon as your horse starts jigging or speeding up because he wants to take the lead. THEN MAKE HIM TAKE THE LEAD. Warn the other rider that you are going and GO when you feel like he wants to slow down, make him keep going. Work him hard, doesnt necessarily mean fast, but hard and away from the other horse. Again, when you feel he has had enough, go just a little longer. When you decide he has had enough, walk him back to the other rider and fall in behind again. When he starts jigging/speeding up, then start all over.

Eventually he will start to understand that it is much easier to walk where you want him to.

Any way good luck.

[tigers_girl]

Originally Posted by MissCriss

The fact that he only does that on the trail WITH the mare makes me agree with what the other poster said...because the mare is not very confident and is in a way sort of challenging his position by taking his usual spot, he gets uncomfortable. As you probably know, horses become insecure when their leaders are not secure themselves.
.

This i think is really dead on. i got thinking about it and it is very appropriate. the mare is only 3 and she needs to be bossed around and needs the direction of the herd. the last herd she was in, they didnt really give her direction. the alpha wasnt doing a very good job, he is a bit insecure himself. and they just beat up on her (like a little sibling) she ended up being by herself a lot and developing bad habits such as food aggression. her owner told me about it when the mare moved over and that maybe i should feed her farther away so shes not aggressive about feed. the first day everyone ate together in the pasture, she was most definetly put in her place as far as who eats what and when. I think on trail its the same, my alpha gelding can tell shes not qulaified to lead the trail; i can even tell that. so he feels he needs to get up there and put her in her place. the first couple trails he was pinning ears at her and kicking out and making sure that she was not following to close and tried to be worried about her. i let him know that this was not good behavior, when im around im in charge. and i worked him through this with getting his feet moving and brain thinking so that hes to distracted with working and doing what i am telling him to worry about her (this seems to be his best training method. getting his mind off his little kicks or jigging and distracting him from them. did a lot of that when i was taking lessons.)

thanks so much for all the suggestions and i cant wait to try them all. i will be patient and give each method some time. i notice he has been a bit sloppy with his ground work and manners so im going to get back to basics on those. thats great work to before a ride to get his brain in a working mindset.

thanks again and feel free to post more suggestions!

[tigers_girl]

i was out on the trail yesterday with just the gelding and he did great! i recently bought some Weaver tack and they advertized to send in the item number and ur address and get a free dvd: safety and training on the trail with stacy westfall. i was like: well it couldnt hurt, and its free! so i just recieved that and hopefully can put it to work!