[Chris]

Hi Folks,
I need help out there... Yesturday, I had the Farrier come and trim my 7 yr. old mare and her 6mt.old colt. From the beginning things went south... my mare tried to bite, kick and strike the farrier while being trimmed. I was so embarrassed... My Farrier said that at 7 years old she should be 'beyond' this type of behavior. She said it's not like this is something new to her and no one is hurting her. My Farrier is a woman and is very patient and gentle; but firm with the horses. She doesn't allow them to get away with this type of behavior. It took her 2 hours to trim my mare. When it was time to move on to the little one, after the first two feet he started displaying this same type of behavior (he incorporated teeth grinding into it). Anyway, this is not the first time she trimmed my animals. However, she did say she would not continue if this behavior didn't improve. My problem is this; my mare has 'attitude'. Some day's she will stand cross-tied and allow you to groom her, while other times she dances, throws her head, rears and crow hops. Same with haltering her. Some times I go in to put her halter on and she stands quietly, while other times she spins her rear end to me, throws her head up in the air, pushes her shoulder into me, or tries to head butt me. I also have the same kind of problem with her feet. One time she lets me pick them up and clean them with no problem; other times she does this deal where she is pretending to fall (leans way far forward) when you pick up her front foot, or she will try and cow kick me my with her back!
I'm not sure what is going on. I don't allow her to 'get away with' bad behavior. I am very firm, but not harsh. I always try to end on a good note too. It seams like I have a Jeckle and Hyde living in my barn. My husband thinks more work in the round pen will teach her better manners. The Farrier thinks she already knows what you want; training isn't her problem. She thinks her problem is and always will be "ATTITUDE". She said this is a horse that is very moody and wants to be boss and will always be 'fighting me' for the lead position. She used the word "STUBBORN" more times than not. She also said I should sell her and get her away from my baby ASAP as she is teaching him her bad habits. I'm not sure what I should do. My vet said she has no physical problems that should lend itself to this behavior. The last time I tried to ride her she reared on me four times and that was just upon mounting her. While other times I rode her she was very well behaved. Bottom line is this: I don't feel 100% safe with her and I feel she is unpredictable.
Are 'attitudes' things horses carry around with them for life? Or, can this be changed by 'Round Penning' her some more? Need input...

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Chris ]</small>

[spyro1]

Wow, IMO, this does definately sound like attitude because you say that she is fine one time doing something, then not so fine the next time. As far as the farrier goes, this is somnething that needs to be addressed for her safety. How did she handle the situation with your mare? You said that she has patience, after the first sign of aggression, the mare should have been punished. Now, PLEASE don't take this wrong way, this is just my opinion, you said that you do get after your mare, how do you do it? I live by the 3 second rule: "If your horse comes at you to hurt you, you have 3 seconds to react and 3 seconds to kill them." Now, we all know that you won't kill a horse wiht your bare hands in 3 seconds, so don't take this literally, If you watch the alpha mare in a wild herd, they are behaving much like your mare is striking, rearing, biting. This is how they show their dominence over the rest of the herd. In captivity, humans are their herd. You need to really lay into your mare when she is behaving like this and let her know that it will not be tolerated. You know that she knows how to behave, now you just have to work wiht her on her consistency. If she "falls" too far forward while you are trying to pick her feet, don't let go, let her fall. Guarantee she won't do it again If she spins towards you with her butt when you try to enter the stall and halter her, use that halter and whop her on teh butt. She won't want to show it to you again. Horses are very smart animals and learn by repitition. Swing my butt at her = gets me a stinging butt. Kepp my head towards her, I get rewarded..
As for your colt, at 6 months, he is old enough to be weaned and I do agree with your farrier about him picking up this behavior. Foals learn from their mommas.
Good Luck...

[Chris]

Hi Spyro1,
First let me say thanks for your 411. As for the discipline of my horse... I do live by the 3 second rule. I was taught that any horse that tries to kick, bite or strike means business to hurt you and that WILL NOT be tolerated! My Farrier is firm, but then the horse does belong to me and there's only so much I think she's willing to do around me. I was holding my little one (colt) during this time so I was not directly 'hands on' so to speak.
And yes, I did let my horse fall (more than once) when she pulled her 'I'm falling' stunt. And yes, she continues to pull it. I think I have a real fruit-loop on my hands. I don't know if it happens with her 'time of the month', or by the light of the moon... either way I'm not very happy. And as for the weaning... I'm working on that... I only have the two here on the property. The other day I seperated them in two seperate stalls just to see what would happen; the mare went nuts and my baby started 'climbing' the stall and throwing himself off the walls (litteraly)! I would like to remove my mare, but that would leave Jr. all alone which is not good I'm told. Sounds like I've got a FEW problems don't it? eek!

[spyro1]

Great advice about keeping a log of her heat cycles. This could be a major thing while I am all for regumate, it is quite costly. If you decide that part of her problems are due to "PMS'ing" there are herbal supplements out there that will help (so they advertise) that are a fraction of the cost of regumate..As for weaning your little one, I wish I could lend you our pony, she is a great babysitter Do you have a friend that could take baby, momma or possible bring you a horse to "borrow" for a couple of weeks?? I had to laugh out loud when you referred to our mare as a "fruit loop" wow, I can't believe that she continues to allow herself to fall like that, maybe she is that hard headed, curious, what breed is she??

[Tammy Grace Lynn]

Good advice from Spyro and Vickey. I totally agree that your mares problem is ALL Attitude! I too live by the three second rule (John Lyons). As for her bad behavior...next time she rears on you pull her over and sit on her neck so she cannot get back up. I kid you not. Sounds crazy but it works. I had a horse that reared up everytime you tried to load him in a trailer. After trying every possible method and two hours later I just pulled him over next time he reared and I sat on him for about 20 minutes. He loaded like a gentleman. Also, I would tie her up all day. Just tie her and leave her there. Untie her only to walk her over to her water. Do NOT bring the water to her. You may see a change in attitude....I've seen this done many times by trainers, farriers and I have tied and left my horse standing for hours at a time. Completely different horse when I went to get him.

Absolutely get your baby away from her as soon as you can...bad manners can be learned from other horses. If you don't have the energy to work with her yourself or if you feel that you are unsafe..you may consider putting her with a trainer for 30 days or just selling her as a broodmare.

P.S. has she only started this behavior since having a foal or is this an ongoing thing?

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Tammy Grace Lynn ]</small>

[Chris]

Her breed is American Paint (Quarter Horse)! She's been bossy from day one, but it has gotten worse since having the baby! In fact, since I started working with the baby she's becoming more possessive and he's nursing more and becoming more clingy. The opposite of what should be happening... And, as for trying to find someone willing to help me out... no one that I talk to seems to want the aggravation of hauling their horse over to my place, then hauling it back out a month or two later.
By the way, since everyone seems to agree she's got 'ATTITUDE' will I always be fighting an up-hill battle? Or, will I finally emerge as the victor in this battle between beast and woMAN? ~I don't know how much fight I have left in me! I guess what I'm asking is: Will there ever come a time when my 'herd position' won't be challenged by this mare? I've owned a lot of horses in my life and never remember having this type of problem. I guess up until now I've been pretty lucky. It's kinda like raising a strong-willed child (raised one already )That took years off my life !! Wouldn't want to repete it with a horse!

[Tammy Grace Lynn]

You have a place in your mare's social order. To her, you are not a person, you are just a two legged animal. If your horse is biting you, walking all over you when you are leading her, throwing her ears back at you, kicking, or turning her rear end at you then she is telling you that you are lower in the pecking order than she is. When she does something that is not acceptable, make a huge deal over it...make it so that it is unpleasant for her to do that. When something becomes important to you, it will become important to her.

"By the way, since everyone seems to agree she's got 'ATTITUDE' will I always be fighting an up-hill battle? Or, will I finally emerge as the victor in this battle between beast and woMAN? ~I don't know how much fight I have left in me! I guess what I'm asking is: Will there ever come a time when my 'herd position' won't be challenged by this mare?"

I do not know the answer to that question. It is definitely something that will take a long period of time. It is important to set short term goals and reward her for doing what you ask. It will take comittment, time and consistency on your part. I guess it depends on how much you want to keep this mare?

[Chris]

You know, you really challenged me to answer the 'Big Question'. How much do I really want to keep this mare? If I get real honest with myself I'd have to say, "I really don't know". I'm a realist when it comes down to certain issues. I feel like I purchased an animal that has been allowed to get her own way for a long time and may even be pretty set in her ways. Some of the habits she has run deep, that's probably why I have 'good days and bad days' with her. Most of what I feel like I'm dealing with are the 'little monsters' that someone else has created. I look at all the time and work I need to put into the baby (colt) and then re-training her? I don't think I have that kind of stamina or energy. I wish I did. Maybe If I were twenty years younger... But, I believe you're right when you say that it will probably take a lot of time with her before she comes around. I've got some decisions to make... Thanks everyone wink

[Sandra-A1]

Chris, if you like the mare enough to put some more money into her then why not send her away to a professional trainer for 60 - 90 days. That way the mare is getting attitude adjustment and you have her away from the foal so you can work with it! You can drop by the trainers to work with the mare under the trainers watchful eye and that way the mare learns she has to behave herself with you as well. Once the mare returns home have the trainer drop by 3 or 4 times to reinforce what she learned there and to make sure she knows she has to continue to be cooperative when back home.
Honestly the way she is acting now you will have a hard time selling her and while at the trainers there might be someone who is interested in her and want to buy her....then again she might turn around so much after being there that you want to keep her! wink

[Dawn]

Sending her to a trainer is a good idea, but you would have to be working with her. Maybe a better idea would be to have a trainer come work with you for a period of time at least 2 or 3 times a week. Then you can practice everything you've learned in between times. The major advantage to sending her away would be to get her away from the baby. If you do decide to sell her, you could probably sell her as a broodmare. She does seem to be a good mom even if she does have some undesirable traits that the baby would pick up on.