Ask the Judge!

ridegrrl · 01-23-2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bay_blnd jmpr07

Ok...What is your opinion of half Arabians in hunter classes?

I need to work on my folding when jumping...I tend to fold too much for jumps...

I've done well at hunter shows, I've placed in all hunter classes but at one show...But I'd like to go to some rated shows, but I don't want to go if I'm automatically not be placed as soon as I enter the arena...

Well m'dear, I make a point of never forming opinions about how a horse will do in a certain discipline based on his breed or pedigree. So I haven't got a thing against half Arabians in Hunter!

Your horse is pretty darn cute, too. How big is he?

Realistically, there's no way to guarantee that every judge will like your horse. In fact, if there was, your competition may as well stay home, you'd have every win in the bag!

But keeping in mind that the goal isn't so much about riding for the judge as it is to achieve your maximum potential ability as a horse and rider team, I don't think you'd be out of your league showing at rated shows. Watch and learn at rated shows, then practice hard with your horse, and then go for it!

And just a thought... have you considered rated Arabian shows? They offer classes for Half and Anglo (half TB) Arabians as well as for purebreds. Some are even hosted by Half Arabian associations!

belle4 · 01-24-2006, 12:54 AM

What an outstanding thead. A virtual dream come true.

I have tons of questions.

Showmanship:

1. When the judge is inspecting, with what foot does the handler move first to change sides? I have always instructed my students to step with the inside foot first. For example, if you are standing on the lead side and need to move to the off side, the handler would take the first step with the right (inside) foot. I have seen it done with either foot and would like to know which is correct.

2. How many steps to get to the other side. I know it depends on the length of legs and size of handler, but for a normal sized person that matches her horse in size, how many steps? (this question is sort of like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? Ha Ha

) Maybe is not written in stone, but what do you prefer/like to see?

3. In horsemanship, do you prefer to have the rider "set" the horse up for a correct lead departure or just have them cue right from dead stop at dead on straight? To me, there are a few ways of looking at this. If you have question as to wether your horse will take the right lead, then you need to set them up to help them out a bit, maybe on a younger greener horse for example. However, does a more seasoned rider/horse team get more points for finess if they perform the manuever with minimal setup requried? It can't be just the end result (loping on the correct lead) that counts? Style has to come into play also, right???

4. I always get confused at interperting patterns with cones in showmanship. For example, many times the judge purposely leaves things out in the written pattern so the handler is forced to use his/her judgement. I know you always stay on the same side of the cone, but sometimes it's unclear wether to stop with the front feet even with the cone or the back?

For example, lets say there are 3 cones. You start at A, trot to b, do a 180 and back to C. At B, do you stop so the front feet are even with the cone (that makes your stop look good) or do you stop with the back feet even with the cone (to make your pivot look good and right at the cone)?

And... when you get to C, do you stop with the front feet a C (making your back longer) or do you stop with the back feet at C?

Kiwi Pony · 01-24-2006, 01:10 AM

^^ Good GREIF!! What discipline is that, belle? Remind me to NEVER, EVER do it!! I'm not trying to be mean - I know each has their own thing... but do judges REALLY pick on which foot you step forward with and how many steps you take to walk around your horse?!

LMAO! Sorry... I've just never heard of anything like that before...

belle4 · 01-24-2006, 01:33 AM

Kiwi,

It's called showmanship Baby, showmanship!!!

It's probablly my favorite class. There is so much poise and finesse it's unreal. And yes, it really really matters with what foot you lead with, how many steps you take to change sides (box game), where you stand, how you hold your hands, posture etc... it's exact, like a dance with your horse. The horse has to move effortlessly with you, with unnoticible cues, follow your every move. It's really quite beautiful, takes a long time to master, handler and horse are really in tune with each other. The horses are fit and groomed to the nines and the show clothes are out of this world!!!! We practice showmanship daily. You can't believe how much handling your horse for showmanship improves ALL aspects of your relatonship with your horse.

I spend time teaching every horse I come in contact with showmanship. Every student of mine learns showmanship. It reinforces horsemanship in general.

Showmanship is usually the very first class of the day. If you can impress the judge with your showmanship skills, it sets a standard for all the under saddle classes. Normally if your are a good showman and place or win that class, you are well on your way to a very sucessful day.

Kiwi Pony · 01-24-2006, 01:41 AM

Wow. Ok that does sound a little more fun (and purposeful

) now.

What KIND of showmanship? Or is it just called 'showmanship'? Is this for like Tennessee walking horses kind of thing? Or 'normal' horses lol?

belle4 · 01-24-2006, 03:20 AM

Quote:

What KIND of showmanship? Or is it just called 'showmanship'? Is this for like Tennessee walking horses kind of thing? Or 'normal' horses lol?

I would imagine that most EVERY breed has classes for showmanship. I know all the major breeds do. The class is just called showmanship, is normally broken down in the age of handler groups (further seperated into novice, youth and amature) and the horse is shown according to the breed specifics.

At an open show, the handler presents the horse according to their breed, maybe making some adjustments because most of the horses are stock type (QH, paint, app, POA).

*Psylocke* · 01-24-2006, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belle4

It's called showmanship Baby, showmanship!!!

Okay now I REALLY laughed out loud at that one...LMAO!

btw go Kim, good thread!

Psy

John · 01-24-2006, 03:50 AM

When I am doing showmanship ,how far from the halter should I hold the leadshank and what will go wrong if I hold it to close?

ridegrrl · 01-24-2006, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belle4

What an outstanding thead. A virtual dream come true.

I have tons of questions.

Showmanship:

1. When the judge is inspecting, with what foot does the handler move first to change sides? I have always instructed my students to step with the inside foot first. For example, if you are standing on the lead side and need to move to the off side, the handler would take the first step with the right (inside) foot. I have seen it done with either foot and would like to know which is correct.

2. How many steps to get to the other side. I know it depends on the length of legs and size of handler, but for a normal sized person that matches her horse in size, how many steps? (this question is sort of like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? Ha Ha

) Maybe is not written in stone, but what do you prefer/like to see?

3. In horsemanship, do you prefer to have the rider "set" the horse up for a correct lead departure or just have them cue right from dead stop at dead on straight? To me, there are a few ways of looking at this. If you have question as to wether your horse will take the right lead, then you need to set them up to help them out a bit, maybe on a younger greener horse for example. However, does a more seasoned rider/horse team get more points for finess if they perform the manuever with minimal setup requried? It can't be just the end result (loping on the correct lead) that counts? Style has to come into play also, right???

4. I always get confused at interperting patterns with cones in showmanship. For example, many times the judge purposely leaves things out in the written pattern so the handler is forced to use his/her judgement. I know you always stay on the same side of the cone, but sometimes it's unclear wether to stop with the front feet even with the cone or the back?

For example, lets say there are 3 cones. You start at A, trot to b, do a 180 and back to C. At B, do you stop so the front feet are even with the cone (that makes your stop look good) or do you stop with the back feet even with the cone (to make your pivot look good and right at the cone)?

And... when you get to C, do you stop with the front feet a C (making your back longer) or do you stop with the back feet at C?

Good mornin! Thanks, I'm glad this thread gets your nod of approval!

1. Absolutely, step with the inside foot first. I've seen a few handlers begin with a crossing step and somehow it ends in disaster more often than not, feet tangled and stumbling... eek!

Stepping left with the left foot just looks more natural.

2. Either 2 large or 3 regular steps to get from one side of the "V" to the other [referring to the virtual "V" that points the handlers toes between her horse's hooves, whether she stands on the near or off side]. As long as it looks smooth and polished, I don't have a preference between 2 or 3 steps. Examples given moving from near side (L) to off side (R):
-2 steps: step with left foot, step across with right foot, and pivot on the ball of your right foot as you bring your left foot alongside and finish facing your horse's shoulder.
-3 steps: step with left foot, step across with right, step again with left foot, and then bring the right alongside to finish.

3. Again, we agree; show the horse you've got. In other words, help a green horse out... set him up in foolproof manner with as obvious a cue as you need in order to get the lead. But a seasoned horse should be able to pick up either lead no matter where his body is... so show that off and deliver a departure that comes straight away from the line.

4. Yeah we're mean like that, making handlers plan their pattern hehehe! It is a judgement call, and I would say that the rule of thumb is to plan ahead and pick the stop that showcases the next maneuver. If there were no pivots or other maneuvers where the hindquarter was the focus, then I'd make all of my stops aligned with the front feet. In this case, I'd make the stop at B lined up with the hind feet for the pivot, and my alignments at A and C even with the front feet.

belle4 · 01-24-2006, 10:01 AM

[quote]Yeah we're mean like that, making handlers plan their pattern hehehe! It is a judgement call, and I would say that the rule of thumb is to plan ahead and pick the stop that showcases the next maneuver. If there were no pivots or other maneuvers where the hindquarter was the focus, then I'd make all of my stops aligned with the front feet. In this case, I'd make the stop at B lined up with the hind feet for the pivot, and my alignments at A and C even with the front feet.[/QUOTE]

That is what I have always thought, but never been ballsy(is that a word?) enough to instruct my kids to do it!! I always go with the safe bet and stop with the front feet, even though I KNOW that stopping with the rear feet, especially getting set up to do a pivot, would look better. Now I will have the courage to go AGAINST the flow.

I see more and more judges leaving the pattern up to interpertation by the handler. It definately makes it more interesting, but tougher on the instructors!!

I normally find myself watching other people practice to see how they are performing the pattern or ask some other trusted horseman. Now I will know!! They can all follow my example. I will be sure to let you know how it works.

Thanks so much for your advice and professional opinion.

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01-24-2006, 12:54 AM	#52
belle4 Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,542 Images: 396	What an outstanding thead. A virtual dream come true. I have tons of questions. Showmanship: 1. When the judge is inspecting, with what foot does the handler move first to change sides? I have always instructed my students to step with the inside foot first. For example, if you are standing on the lead side and need to move to the off side, the handler would take the first step with the right (inside) foot. I have seen it done with either foot and would like to know which is correct. 2. How many steps to get to the other side. I know it depends on the length of legs and size of handler, but for a normal sized person that matches her horse in size, how many steps? (this question is sort of like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? Ha Ha ) Maybe is not written in stone, but what do you prefer/like to see? 3. In horsemanship, do you prefer to have the rider "set" the horse up for a correct lead departure or just have them cue right from dead stop at dead on straight? To me, there are a few ways of looking at this. If you have question as to wether your horse will take the right lead, then you need to set them up to help them out a bit, maybe on a younger greener horse for example. However, does a more seasoned rider/horse team get more points for finess if they perform the manuever with minimal setup requried? It can't be just the end result (loping on the correct lead) that counts? Style has to come into play also, right??? 4. I always get confused at interperting patterns with cones in showmanship. For example, many times the judge purposely leaves things out in the written pattern so the handler is forced to use his/her judgement. I know you always stay on the same side of the cone, but sometimes it's unclear wether to stop with the front feet even with the cone or the back? For example, lets say there are 3 cones. You start at A, trot to b, do a 180 and back to C. At B, do you stop so the front feet are even with the cone (that makes your stop look good) or do you stop with the back feet even with the cone (to make your pivot look good and right at the cone)? And... when you get to C, do you stop with the front feet a C (making your back longer) or do you stop with the back feet at C?

01-24-2006, 01:10 AM	#53
Kiwi Pony Senior Member+ Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,318 Images: 119 Blog Entries: 34	^^ Good GREIF!! What discipline is that, belle? Remind me to NEVER, EVER do it!! I'm not trying to be mean - I know each has their own thing... but do judges REALLY pick on which foot you step forward with and how many steps you take to walk around your horse?! LMAO! Sorry... I've just never heard of anything like that before...

01-24-2006, 01:33 AM	#54
belle4 Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,542 Images: 396	Kiwi, It's called showmanship Baby, showmanship!!! It's probablly my favorite class. There is so much poise and finesse it's unreal. And yes, it really really matters with what foot you lead with, how many steps you take to change sides (box game), where you stand, how you hold your hands, posture etc... it's exact, like a dance with your horse. The horse has to move effortlessly with you, with unnoticible cues, follow your every move. It's really quite beautiful, takes a long time to master, handler and horse are really in tune with each other. The horses are fit and groomed to the nines and the show clothes are out of this world!!!! We practice showmanship daily. You can't believe how much handling your horse for showmanship improves ALL aspects of your relatonship with your horse. I spend time teaching every horse I come in contact with showmanship. Every student of mine learns showmanship. It reinforces horsemanship in general. Showmanship is usually the very first class of the day. If you can impress the judge with your showmanship skills, it sets a standard for all the under saddle classes. Normally if your are a good showman and place or win that class, you are well on your way to a very sucessful day.

01-24-2006, 01:41 AM	#55
Kiwi Pony Senior Member+ Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,318 Images: 119 Blog Entries: 34	Wow. Ok that does sound a little more fun (and purposeful ) now. What KIND of showmanship? Or is it just called 'showmanship'? Is this for like Tennessee walking horses kind of thing? Or 'normal' horses lol?

01-24-2006, 03:50 AM	#58
John Senior Member+ Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 3,116 Images: 31	When I am doing showmanship ,how far from the halter should I hold the leadshank and what will go wrong if I hold it to close?

01-24-2006, 10:01 AM	#60
belle4 Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,542 Images: 396	[quote]Yeah we're mean like that, making handlers plan their pattern hehehe! It is a judgement call, and I would say that the rule of thumb is to plan ahead and pick the stop that showcases the next maneuver. If there were no pivots or other maneuvers where the hindquarter was the focus, then I'd make all of my stops aligned with the front feet. In this case, I'd make the stop at B lined up with the hind feet for the pivot, and my alignments at A and C even with the front feet.[/QUOTE] That is what I have always thought, but never been ballsy(is that a word?) enough to instruct my kids to do it!! I always go with the safe bet and stop with the front feet, even though I KNOW that stopping with the rear feet, especially getting set up to do a pivot, would look better. Now I will have the courage to go AGAINST the flow. I see more and more judges leaving the pattern up to interpertation by the handler. It definately makes it more interesting, but tougher on the instructors!! I normally find myself watching other people practice to see how they are performing the pattern or ask some other trusted horseman. Now I will know!! They can all follow my example. I will be sure to let you know how it works. Thanks so much for your advice and professional opinion.