app mare training woes

belle4 · 09-09-2004, 06:47 AM

Just had a discussion (arguement) with a client of mine last night. As you know I have some wealthy clients with a dog for a horse that they want trained. She is a 4 year old unregistered app mare with poor conformation and an even worse temperment. I have explained to them that the horse will never be suitable for 2 novice owners, period. They begged me to contiue with the mares training because they feel a bond to the horse. What ever. I agreed, until the next time she bucks me off and I am done. So far, so good, no bucking. Have taken her back to very basics and just recently started riding her again.

Last night the woman was questioning me about being on the bit. She said she learned the "George Morris" way and wants her stock breed mare trained the same way. Now keep in mind that she is an arm chair quaterback, back seat driver etc. Hasn't ridden a horse in 10 years. Wants to be sure that the mare will not be hanging her nose in the dirt and will go on a steady contact rein. I tried to explain to the woman that the mare is learing how to yeild to pressure, (meaning just turn you stupid nag.) The mare is a stock breed and not a WB or TB. She should travel with a lower head and no curl in her neck. I ride every horse on a loose rein until the horse tells me that it needs a correction. Then I correct by taking the slack out of the rein in many different ways depending on the circumstances.

I tried to explain that at this point in her training I want her to yeild to pressure. How can she possibly learn to yeild if there is constant contact? Where is the release? I used my horses as examples. Told her it is much more difficult to ride a horse with a draped rein in a straight line or a circle than it would be to ride two handed with constant contact. Used reining for example. Told her that all around horses go on a draped rein for western and contact for english. My own horses do this. Used POA for example. She has seen him in person. She seemed to buy that, but was still concerned about the mare flipping her head and becoming ultra sensitive about her head because I ride with as little rein as needed. She was concerned that when the rein was applied as she was taught, the mare would resort to head flipping. Currently the mare has had a bit in her mouth once, is being ridden in a halter and does not or has she ever flipped her head. She said the mares dam was a real head flipper and was worried that it might run in the family. OMG!

A side note on the app mare's dam. Dam is 14 year old, unregistered app mare, conformationally challenged, bred to a donkey stallion. She was used her entire life as a riding stable horse. She is a serious head flipper with any amount of rein pressure. Do you think it may have something to do with the fact that 1000's of first time horse riders yanked on her mouth for 14 years?

I tried to again explain that I know personally dozens of Joe's full and 1/2 siblings. Just because brother A misses his right lead does not mean it runs in the Caan line. I give up.

Tried to explain that at this point in the mares training I am not asking for a head set at all. Nor will I be for quite some time, but when I do, the mare will respond with minimal cue's from both leg and hand. Hopefully mostly leg if I am doing my job right. I told her that the dragging of the nose in the dirt was lost years ago (beside the fact that the mare has such a poorly shaped neck set on a steep shoulder with a perfectly ugly head and thick throat latch she could never carry her head that low or on the verticle.) She even went so far as to give me a book by George Morris from 1965.

I have gathered that the husband will be riding the horse when the time comes and he rides western. And the horse will never be shown, just trail ridden. And if you asked me she is not worth any of this. They continue to pay me very good money. Really doesn''t matter to me if I train a $50 horse or a $50,000 horse, I get paid the same. I have eased by mind by telling them straight out what I think of the mares possibilities of ever becoming something that they can trust and enjoy.

Don't really know what I expect from you all, but just wanted to get this out. It is very frustrating. I have decided to tell her that it is her horse and she has the right to have app mare trained any way she wants. I will ride with contact if she wishes, I can certainly do that, but to what end? If ever at any point she is not satisfied with my progress she can feel free to let me know. I will do my best to find her a trainer that works more closely to her values. Here's what I think, GOOD LUCK!!

belle4 · 09-09-2004, 06:54 AM

Sorry, just one more thing. I was a perfectly professional, well behaved lady when speaking to my client. And so was she. It never got ugly, just really never reached a conclusion. I didn't want anyone to think that I was rude in any way to a client or any person for that matter. Not in my genes.

Shotgun93 · 09-09-2004, 06:57 AM

What is the deal with 4 year old app mares? My friend is training an appy mare that is exactly how you described, bad conformation, poor head and neck, and absolutly no manners. She's started this horse over, did months of ground work before even getting on her, and that mare still bucks, completely out of the blue, no reason or warning. And she tosses her head, which is odd considering she is only ever ridden in a halter. I really don't have any advice, but I just wanted to tell that you are not alone in the world of hard-to-deak-with owners that have bo clue what they bought, or what they have gotten themselves into.

Shotgun93 · 09-09-2004, 06:59 AM

Also, it sounds to me like you are doing a wonderful job, it's too bad there aren't more trainers like you around.

QHGirl · 09-09-2004, 07:46 AM

OH my gosh, we know you better than that, AND i figured you didn't talk about the donkey stud

and ugly head like you do with us... venting is what I call it. If you don't do it, you will go insane.

OK, and for one thing, can I just laugh out loud.... you are such a truthful horse person, if only you lived down here

I wish we had more LOVING and caring trainers in the world like you!!!

We are here to listen and to of course tell you you are RIGHT!!! and you did the right thing...

ha ha... on contact... whatever!!!! And the book, that cracked me up! SO what page are you on??

Blistering Winds · 09-09-2004, 07:49 AM

Flat out tell her if she doesn't like your training, then she can take her nag and find a new trainer. FLAT OUT. I HATE owners who try to change my ways. I am NOT going to do things I don't know or understand. And that includes different methods. If I understand it, I'll try it.

Flat out ask if the horse is to go English or Western. If western, the horse needs to ride loose rein. If english, then YES, you need to train the horse to go on the bit immediately! Because the cross training takes even longer to get a western horse to ACCEPT contact!!

belle4 · 09-09-2004, 08:15 AM

I could go on and on, but just gave you all the highlights of our conversation. I did forget to mention the valuable pamphlet(sp)titled The Art Of Lunging from 1976. Really, no joke. (see attachment #2)

I have enclosed a picture of the back jacked cover with a picture of Georgie Baby. That hat is the bomb. In all seriousness, I'm sure George was/is a great horseman. Not even sure if he is still alive! LOL Equitation is timeless, but come on. (attachment #1)

Carrie,

Page 7, and the mare and her dam really are bred to donkey studs. No joke. Can't wait to see that mule!

Blistering Winds · 09-09-2004, 08:22 AM

From what I remember, he was a good English Equitation Trainer. BUT it doesn't serve any purpose on a Western Horse.

TOTALLY different disciplines. And if you drop a rein on an english horse, they either walk or BOLT! (at least the one I was on the other day OUCH)

I rode this lady's horse who she said was trained english and western. Well, we saddle up English, and I ride her around, then I dropped my stirrups into a western type position, and dropped my reins down, OH BOY WAS THAT FUN!! That horse went WHAT? And FLEW EVERYWHERE!!!! Once contact was established again, he was like, OH That's better!! LMAO. I ALMOST ended up on the ground!!!

Needless to say, we didn't buy that horse!! LMAO

Shotgun93 · 09-09-2004, 08:34 AM

Wow! That's really funny. You should introduce them to the wonderful world of new books. George Morris was a good trainer, but seriously, 1965?

Dawn · 09-09-2004, 08:45 AM

The reason the horse did that bw was because he was trained like you just said an english horse should be trained (with contact from the beginning.) Doing that will completely ruin a horse, confuse them, make them sore, hard mouthed, and everything else.

09-09-2004, 06:57 AM	#3
Shotgun93 Senior Moderator Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Southwest SD Posts: 13,305 Images: 124	What is the deal with 4 year old app mares? My friend is training an appy mare that is exactly how you described, bad conformation, poor head and neck, and absolutly no manners. She's started this horse over, did months of ground work before even getting on her, and that mare still bucks, completely out of the blue, no reason or warning. And she tosses her head, which is odd considering she is only ever ridden in a halter. I really don't have any advice, but I just wanted to tell that you are not alone in the world of hard-to-deak-with owners that have bo clue what they bought, or what they have gotten themselves into. __________________ In the quiet light of the stable, you hear a muffled snort, the stamp of a hoof, a friendly nicker. Gentle eyes inquire, "How was your day old friend?" and suddenly, all your troubles fade away. -Author Unknown

09-09-2004, 06:59 AM	#4
Shotgun93 Senior Moderator Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Southwest SD Posts: 13,305 Images: 124	Also, it sounds to me like you are doing a wonderful job, it's too bad there aren't more trainers like you around. __________________ In the quiet light of the stable, you hear a muffled snort, the stamp of a hoof, a friendly nicker. Gentle eyes inquire, "How was your day old friend?" and suddenly, all your troubles fade away. -Author Unknown

09-09-2004, 07:46 AM	#5
QHGirl Senior Member+ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 6,914 Images: 249	OH my gosh, we know you better than that, AND i figured you didn't talk about the donkey stud and ugly head like you do with us... venting is what I call it. If you don't do it, you will go insane. OK, and for one thing, can I just laugh out loud.... you are such a truthful horse person, if only you lived down here I wish we had more LOVING and caring trainers in the world like you!!! We are here to listen and to of course tell you you are RIGHT!!! and you did the right thing... ha ha... on contact... whatever!!!! And the book, that cracked me up! SO what page are you on?? __________________ I must not forget to thank the difficult horses, who made my life miserable, but who were better teachers than the well-behaved school horses who raised no problems. -Alois Podhaisky

09-09-2004, 07:49 AM	#6
Blistering Winds Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Augusta, Kansas Posts: 31,678 Images: 811 Blog Entries: 16	Flat out tell her if she doesn't like your training, then she can take her nag and find a new trainer. FLAT OUT. I HATE owners who try to change my ways. I am NOT going to do things I don't know or understand. And that includes different methods. If I understand it, I'll try it. Flat out ask if the horse is to go English or Western. If western, the horse needs to ride loose rein. If english, then YES, you need to train the horse to go on the bit immediately! Because the cross training takes even longer to get a western horse to ACCEPT contact!! __________________ 20 lb club: New year Start: 175 Goal: 130 Current: 158 Total loss this year 17 lbs.

09-09-2004, 08:15 AM	#7
belle4 Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,830 Images: 417	I could go on and on, but just gave you all the highlights of our conversation. I did forget to mention the valuable pamphlet(sp)titled The Art Of Lunging from 1976. Really, no joke. (see attachment #2) I have enclosed a picture of the back jacked cover with a picture of Georgie Baby. That hat is the bomb. In all seriousness, I'm sure George was/is a great horseman. Not even sure if he is still alive! LOL Equitation is timeless, but come on. (attachment #1) Carrie, Page 7, and the mare and her dam really are bred to donkey studs. No joke. Can't wait to see that mule! __________________ "Never has an adult stood so tall as they were when they bent down to help a child....." (from my friend Sandra)

09-09-2004, 06:47 AM	#1
belle4 Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,830 Images: 417	app mare training woes Just had a discussion (arguement) with a client of mine last night. As you know I have some wealthy clients with a dog for a horse that they want trained. She is a 4 year old unregistered app mare with poor conformation and an even worse temperment. I have explained to them that the horse will never be suitable for 2 novice owners, period. They begged me to contiue with the mares training because they feel a bond to the horse. What ever. I agreed, until the next time she bucks me off and I am done. So far, so good, no bucking. Have taken her back to very basics and just recently started riding her again. Last night the woman was questioning me about being on the bit. She said she learned the "George Morris" way and wants her stock breed mare trained the same way. Now keep in mind that she is an arm chair quaterback, back seat driver etc. Hasn't ridden a horse in 10 years. Wants to be sure that the mare will not be hanging her nose in the dirt and will go on a steady contact rein. I tried to explain to the woman that the mare is learing how to yeild to pressure, (meaning just turn you stupid nag.) The mare is a stock breed and not a WB or TB. She should travel with a lower head and no curl in her neck. I ride every horse on a loose rein until the horse tells me that it needs a correction. Then I correct by taking the slack out of the rein in many different ways depending on the circumstances. I tried to explain that at this point in her training I want her to yeild to pressure. How can she possibly learn to yeild if there is constant contact? Where is the release? I used my horses as examples. Told her it is much more difficult to ride a horse with a draped rein in a straight line or a circle than it would be to ride two handed with constant contact. Used reining for example. Told her that all around horses go on a draped rein for western and contact for english. My own horses do this. Used POA for example. She has seen him in person. She seemed to buy that, but was still concerned about the mare flipping her head and becoming ultra sensitive about her head because I ride with as little rein as needed. She was concerned that when the rein was applied as she was taught, the mare would resort to head flipping. Currently the mare has had a bit in her mouth once, is being ridden in a halter and does not or has she ever flipped her head. She said the mares dam was a real head flipper and was worried that it might run in the family. OMG! A side note on the app mare's dam. Dam is 14 year old, unregistered app mare, conformationally challenged, bred to a donkey stallion. She was used her entire life as a riding stable horse. She is a serious head flipper with any amount of rein pressure. Do you think it may have something to do with the fact that 1000's of first time horse riders yanked on her mouth for 14 years? I tried to again explain that I know personally dozens of Joe's full and 1/2 siblings. Just because brother A misses his right lead does not mean it runs in the Caan line. I give up. Tried to explain that at this point in the mares training I am not asking for a head set at all. Nor will I be for quite some time, but when I do, the mare will respond with minimal cue's from both leg and hand. Hopefully mostly leg if I am doing my job right. I told her that the dragging of the nose in the dirt was lost years ago (beside the fact that the mare has such a poorly shaped neck set on a steep shoulder with a perfectly ugly head and thick throat latch she could never carry her head that low or on the verticle.) She even went so far as to give me a book by George Morris from 1965. I have gathered that the husband will be riding the horse when the time comes and he rides western. And the horse will never be shown, just trail ridden. And if you asked me she is not worth any of this. They continue to pay me very good money. Really doesn''t matter to me if I train a $50 horse or a $50,000 horse, I get paid the same. I have eased by mind by telling them straight out what I think of the mares possibilities of ever becoming something that they can trust and enjoy. Don't really know what I expect from you all, but just wanted to get this out. It is very frustrating. I have decided to tell her that it is her horse and she has the right to have app mare trained any way she wants. I will ride with contact if she wishes, I can certainly do that, but to what end? If ever at any point she is not satisfied with my progress she can feel free to let me know. I will do my best to find her a trainer that works more closely to her values. Here's what I think, GOOD LUCK!! __________________ "Never has an adult stood so tall as they were when they bent down to help a child....." (from my friend Sandra) Last edited by belle4; 09-09-2004 at 07:12 AM.

09-09-2004, 06:54 AM	#2
belle4 Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,830 Images: 417	Sorry, just one more thing. I was a perfectly professional, well behaved lady when speaking to my client. And so was she. It never got ugly, just really never reached a conclusion. I didn't want anyone to think that I was rude in any way to a client or any person for that matter. Not in my genes. __________________ "Never has an adult stood so tall as they were when they bent down to help a child....." (from my friend Sandra)

09-09-2004, 08:22 AM	#8
Blistering Winds Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Augusta, Kansas Posts: 31,678 Images: 811 Blog Entries: 16	From what I remember, he was a good English Equitation Trainer. BUT it doesn't serve any purpose on a Western Horse. TOTALLY different disciplines. And if you drop a rein on an english horse, they either walk or BOLT! (at least the one I was on the other day OUCH) I rode this lady's horse who she said was trained english and western. Well, we saddle up English, and I ride her around, then I dropped my stirrups into a western type position, and dropped my reins down, OH BOY WAS THAT FUN!! That horse went WHAT? And FLEW EVERYWHERE!!!! Once contact was established again, he was like, OH That's better!! LMAO. I ALMOST ended up on the ground!!! Needless to say, we didn't buy that horse!! LMAO __________________ 20 lb club: New year Start: 175 Goal: 130 Current: 158 Total loss this year 17 lbs.

09-09-2004, 08:34 AM	#9
Shotgun93 Senior Moderator Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Southwest SD Posts: 13,305 Images: 124	Wow! That's really funny. You should introduce them to the wonderful world of new books. George Morris was a good trainer, but seriously, 1965? __________________ In the quiet light of the stable, you hear a muffled snort, the stamp of a hoof, a friendly nicker. Gentle eyes inquire, "How was your day old friend?" and suddenly, all your troubles fade away. -Author Unknown

09-09-2004, 08:45 AM	#10
Dawn Senior Member+ Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 29,584 Images: 1283	The reason the horse did that bw was because he was trained like you just said an english horse should be trained (with contact from the beginning.) Doing that will completely ruin a horse, confuse them, make them sore, hard mouthed, and everything else.

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