[PiaffePony0412]

atabal... I'm only going to address a few of the issues you responded too, including the following contradictions:

You say, when doing rollkur/hyperflexion, a horse's back isn't truly up.

And your response to me saying I have ridden a horse in that frame and didn't have 'complete and total control' over his body, your response was 'Well he must have not been through'....

what?! 1) Horse's can't be through in that frame... hence all of my discussion about what training in this frame DOES to the horses performance. 2) ESPECIALLY when, according to you, their backs are not truly up... so... what are you talking about?

No. Anky does not ride with her feet on the dashboard pulling with all her weight... I don't know who you have been watching ride. If those horses were HEAVY on the bit, which they aren't, you would see even worse problems in their performance. Sorry, but Anky is my height but much more petite, no way she is muscling 18.2hh horses into that frame. This is her on Gestion Idool (The video says Bonfire, but it is NOT Bonnie): There is NO WAY she could sit a passage that way if she was hanging on his mouth, and she isn't. I disagree with her riding and HATE to even watch this video, but she is not over powering these horses. Hyperflexion does not take away a horses body control... all he has to do is DROP his head and BUCK. I see horses when they are free put their head to their chest a lot in play. She is most certainly in their mouths, but she isn't putting all her weight against them as you suggest.

YouTube- anky

The rollkur tie downs I'm talking about were used by auctions on young horses before 'showing them out'. It was all about getting them SUPER round, and then pushing them SUPER forward.

Despite everything, and how her horses don't move according to CORRECT dressage, they are EXCELLENT performers. Almost like circus horses running through their tricks... and bullied horse's don't perform like that... sorry.

You need to reread the masters!! Podhasjky most DEFINITELY rode his horses in more than one frame!!!!

As far as the liking/not liking riders, I was going to say the same thing as Rummymuffin. Just because you don't always see the SAME effects from hyperflexion, doesn't mean that horse doesn't train in it.

I have re-iterated the same points enough times, so I am done with this conversation, we will just have to agree to disagree. To me there is no question that A)Hyperflexion is a training method not conducive to a correct and through dressage horse. and B) While Anky uses this method, (as do 57482390 of other riders, just not quite of Anky's fame), I know she has a good relationship with her horses, and they would NOT give her what they do if she didn't. She definitely rides with MORE contact than what I believe is correct, and I see a lot of curb riding, but you cannot CREATE lightness in the mouth of a horse who is muscled into a frame. Ever ridden a hunter horse that some kid see-sawed into a frame? Their mouth is like concrete.

-Piaffepony0412

[MysticRealm]

Yes Atabal I have seen her ride not in test (video is on the OP of this topic) and yes her horse could be FAR more curled, Most of the time she is just behind the vertical, only every now and again does she get too much more curled.

[atabal]

sorry, i dont have time to look further, but here is a vid that clearly shows her pulling and attacking the horse. and AVG pulls most of the time she is riding. that is very clear. she has never had forward thinking hands.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ulriketh...16/QrX6jhkLpiI

as for my comments about access.... perhaps i wasnt clear - if so i appoligize .. the point of throughness is to have acess to the horses body nose to tail and so that aids can travel all the way to the ground.

rollkur takes this to the extreme, and if you can get access to the horse and take away all ability for it to have a voice then it can not say no (when it is "in position") and to clarify further - the point of throughness is to be able to *influence* every corner of the body - i believe the point of rollkur is to *have complete control* of every muscle in the body. and while those two sound very similar - they are worlds apart.

horses learn that it is easier to go along with the program than to get attacked (see video)

i am agreeing with you that rollkur sucks, make no doubt. but i dissagree with some of your assertions.

as for Podjasky - i NEVER said he said a static frame is good! what i said is what is good enough for them (ODGs) is good enough for me. they rode traditional classical dressage - their horse were not stiff and they did not ride deep as it is known today.

sorry, edited to add... i believe the purpose of old school dressage is to create very ridable horses that are balanced and easy to ride. this is totally different than the purpose of modern dressage - which is to create electric athletes that are flamboyant - rideability is last on the list if at all.

[MysticRealm]

So Anky had to do a little bit of discipline with her horse, She never pony kicked it, she never wrenched on it's face in a see saw motion, she wasn't even carrying a whip that I could see. She is riding a big powerful horse doing big powerful complex movements. Sure she took a stronger hold of his face for a bit or used a bit of spur but that is hardly horrible. If you never have to discipline any of your horses great but for the rest of us sometimes we need to tell the horse 'no don't do that, do this'

I am not saying that I love anky or agree with everything she does or even have a great deal of knowledge on everything she does but from the OP video and your video I would have no problems sitting there and enjoying her schooling her horses

[atabal]

So Anky had to do a little bit of discipline with her horse, She never pony kicked it, she never wrenched on it's face in a see saw motion, she wasn't even carrying a whip that I could see. She is riding a big powerful horse doing big powerful complex movements. Sure she took a stronger hold of his face for a bit or used a bit of spur but that is hardly horrible. If you never have to discipline any of your horses great but for the rest of us sometimes we need to tell the horse 'no don't do that, do this'

we have VERY different ideas of how to achieve obedience. to me what is shown in that video is horrible horsemanship and very aggressive riding.

[all4him]

Originally Posted by PiaffePony0412

No. Anky does not ride with her feet on the dashboard pulling with all her weight... I don't know who you have been watching ride.

In that video, watch how often her foot goes WAY forward for a stride. I stopped the video at :23 and her feet were significantly in front of the entire saddle.

[MysticRealm]

So atabal, if you aren't allowed to use any hand or any leg to get your horse to do a movement correctly or stop a misbehavior what to you do? Whisper sweet words into it's ear and pray? Just sit and wait and hope the horse magically figures it out on it's own?
Should we try to do everything as gently as possible? yes. Not only for kindness to the horse but it also makes them in tune to the slightest of aids, but then guess what, if you never 'demand' anything from the horse it's always HIS idea to do it. Which is great, till he decides he would rather do something else. This could be as simple as trotting instead of walking or as dangerous as bolting back to the barn with you still on board, but hey you can't say anything then b/c he has always been allowed to do whatever he feels like doing and right then, that's what he felt like doing. You would be pretty hypocritical (and confusing) to the horse if you said 'You can't do that, do what I tell you' when you have never demanded anything before.
I love my horses very much and we work hard to be a great partnership but sometimes I do demand them to listen to me. Even if they don't fully understand the concept (such as when introducing something new) I just 'demand' that they try to please me even if it's not perfect.

[farmeress]

IMHO...... any Dressage horse that scoots into transitions....has uneven fast tempo steps added in a piaffe that travels into a "shooting forward" passage (PP video above)....or increases speed within the tempo/rythym as the rider is picking up a loose rein (atabals' video)...does not have longitudinal relaxation.....and that...in Dressage...is extremely...extremely...extremely important to the longitudinal suppleness....which without...may as well be a jumper...cause they do not come through the back in a relaxed manner.

Nor does the horse look confident in the video atabal posted as Anky picked up her rein.

This is not a sign of abuse...what it is a sign of is a horse who is not fully relaxed or bridle happy.

[farmeress]

[quote=MysticRealm;4223576]So atabal, if you aren't allowed to use any hand or any leg to get your horse to do a movement correctly or stop a misbehavior what to you do?

You employ the upper and lower core while dropping the weight aids into the seat down the leg while closing the shoulder blades and bracing the back.

Still the seat bones evenly on opposite side of the spine and hold the brace while stopping the seat motion and closing the thigh.

The horse comes into the bridle as the hind end comes underneath meeting the seat/back/core resistance and stops on theses aids while stepping even into the movement which are backed up by the half halt as needed.



quote]

I typed this answer so that you understand why this is wrong...the bridle should not have to be employed in such a constant manner on a trained FEI level horse.

All DRESSAGE movements should come from the seat...forward...yeilding...collection...extention s and halts....everything....and aided by the back...legs....core...calf...shoulder...knee...hip s...half halt as needed....and should listen to these aids before relying on the bridle to stop the evasion...the bridle and bit...are an aid too.

A well trained Dressage horse should be able to be ridden bareback with a halter and still do the movement required from the rider back....especially ones on the FEI level.

[atabal]

Originally Posted by MysticRealm

So atabal, if you aren't allowed to use any hand or any leg to get your horse to do a movement correctly or stop a misbehavior what to you do? Whisper sweet words into it's ear and pray? Just sit and wait and hope the horse magically figures it out on it's own?
Should we try to do everything as gently as possible? yes. Not only for kindness to the horse but it also makes them in tune to the slightest of aids, but then guess what, if you never 'demand' anything from the horse it's always HIS idea to do it. Which is great, till he decides he would rather do something else. This could be as simple as trotting instead of walking or as dangerous as bolting back to the barn with you still on board, but hey you can't say anything then b/c he has always been allowed to do whatever he feels like doing and right then, that's what he felt like doing. You would be pretty hypocritical (and confusing) to the horse if you said 'You can't do that, do what I tell you' when you have never demanded anything before.
I love my horses very much and we work hard to be a great partnership but sometimes I do demand them to listen to me. Even if they don't fully understand the concept (such as when introducing something new) I just 'demand' that they try to please me even if it's not perfect.

there is a HUGE amount of difference between a horse that needs a momentary reprimand and aggressively "tuning your horse up" and spurring it and then blocking it in front with pulling hands and leaning back. this is completely and utterly conflicting aids to the horse. which will only escalate the problem. Strong aids should be the rare exception - not the rule. and i would argue that if you need that kind of aiding to ask for a movement then the is a huge problem with the training.

as for the horse doing what it wants..... i want my horses to do what i want - however, if they offer something that is beneficial then i will accept it and pretend i asked for it. this is a basic tenet of traditional dressage. if you stifle all offers from your horse then you will kill it desire to please.

plus i am of the mind that if my horse did something that i think i didn't ask for then :
a) i asked incorrectly
b) they horse was confused - probably because
c) i didn't explain it well enough to her the first time.
d) i wasn't paying attention and they took over

in other words; i generally think that any errors my horses make is my problem - not theirs. in other words, i need to figure out why they responded as they did and then either be clearer, ask differently etc.

attacking a horse for not responding as i had hoped serves no beneficial purpose at all and if fact is very negative to the training.

If, using your example - my horse were to trot instead of walk - what would the purpose be of yanking on the reins? clearly if the horse is trotting instead of walking I didnt ask in a way she could understand, or my body said "trot" even tho i didnt think it did, etc - it is my job to make sure my horse is in a position to respond (ie balanced, thru, connected etc) and that i ask at the correct time, and in the correct manner so she can answer my question correctly.

the bottom like is: as riders it is our responsibility to ride our horses in a manner that sets them up to succeed - and part of that is knowing that horse cant mind read.