[Snaffle Bit]

I don't really know enough about dressage to comment too much, but I'm reading and 'listening' with interest. I do have a few thoughts though.

Originally Posted by magic_rider

Note during the video she avoided answering the question, the majority of the time was spent talking around it.

I noticed that myself. She never quite answered.

Originally Posted by PiaffePony0412

all4him- They had a huge symposium, where they had vets from all over the world come and study Bonfire as she rode him, and then they did xrays, ultrasounds, the whole nine yards, and they apparently all came to the results that Bonfire had no abnormalties, and he has been ridden that way for yeaaars. But, who knows, and in my personal opinion, I think it does something that is unmeasurable in the horses MIND. Not to mention his relationship with the contact.
-Piaffepony0412

One thing I have to say about that is just because it didn't give one horse physical problems, that doesn't mean it can't or won't. There are horses that race with over 50 starts and those that go dead-lame with in less than 10 simply because they're not sturdy enough to handle it. One horse not being physically affected isn't proof to me that this technique cannot be harmful in the long run.

[atabal]

Originally Posted by PiaffePony0412

Reitsport, Anky coined the term hyperflexion to get away from the term rollkur.

i dont think so? didn't the FEI decide to use the term Hyperflexion

http://www.fei.org/Athletes_AND.../W...nal_050306.pdf

Rollkur originally was tying a horses head down in that frame and riding him like that, but there are a billion variations on the same method... as with everything.

really? I thought Roll Kur was/is any chin to chest riding....

I am agreement with Anky that horses are still horses and if there is something they don't want to do, they won't do it.

anyone that has ridden a horse through in it's body knows that once you have access to their body you have absolute control. so to say you cant force horse to do X - this is totally incorrect - of course you can - that is the ENTIRE point of roll kur.

I am in 1000% in agreement with Anky that variation is completely necessary. Klimke thought this, Kottas teaches this, etc. Riding around in competition frame all day gets you a stiff horse.

if a horse is stiff from being ridden dressage then the work being done is incorrect. It it totally incorrect to say that riding the horse up, open, over the back and in self carriage is detrimental to it. Sure we should ask the horse to go Forward/down/out etc, but if the horse is working correctly, in balance etc they will not be stiff .

My personal PROBLEM with this method however, is that we are getting away from the principles of dressage to focus on bigger more expressive gaits. It has become a bit more of a breed show.

agree!

Hyperflexion is the overexaggerated bend of the horses neck so he is 'super round', bringing his back as up as it can be. It takes stronger development of a horses muscles to carry himself and the rider this way. The main problem with this, as with any horse being BTV, is they are not through from behind, they are physically unable to reach under themselves to the correct extent. The advantage, is a round, supple back and neck- lots to work with. This is the same advantage you get when warming up a horse round, low and deep, but to the utmost extreme.

i agree with the first part, but not the second. a roll kur'd horse does NOT have a round supple back. their backs are stiff and unmoving and down a lot of the time.

Classical dressage has been the same since it began- over 2000 years ago.

this is not true! there are many schools of "classical" dressage and they have evolved over time.... however i think by the early 20th century there was a degree of stability in the theories.

But competitive dressage goes through the ups and downs that come with fads, popularity and money. The high stepping horse whose knees almost touch his chin is WAY IN right now, and with time, I'm sure it too will pass, but correctness is in forever.

agree

It is really up to US and the judges to what is considered successful and correct in the show ring.

no, the rules are laid out in the FEI rule book... so it isnt up to you and me and the judges to decide what is correct. it is however, up to the judges to AWARD correct riding. which they have not been doing lately.

As long as Anky and Gal keep receiving record breaking scores from judges who are obviously blinded by their horses flashiness, then they will be the ones setting the standard.

agree

All of that being said, I don't think hyperflexion is cruel, in the way Anky uses it,

here I disagree . I think Anky uses her body as a weapon and the horses suffer for it.

I did want to add that there are plenty of correct riders/trainers at the international level. Hubertus Schmidt, Monica Theodorescu, Kyra Kyrklund, Ann-Kathrin Linsenhoff (she might be retired now) and others.

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[Libby-Jane]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowgurly02
I don't know enough about dressage or hyperflexion/rolkur to have an educated opinion, but I definitely did notice that horse fighting it and trying to come out of it/shaking his head several times in that video. If my horse did that it would be a sign of him telling me he wasn't comfortable with what I was asking.



i find that hilarious. i would think that this position is a lot more comfortable. it is all about streaching the neck and along the back to make the horse more supple. and everyone knows that when a horse is more supple, it is much more comfortable to ride and for the horse. this is the idea, you see, that the horse builds up muscles in the right areas so that it is more able/comfortable to carry its head in the competition outline.
another thing i find funny. that anky is one of the best dressage riders in the world at the moment and you are all here criticizing her techniques like you could do better?!? that makes no sense to me..
and of course you are now going to say that she doesnt respect her horses, she just wants to win... and i will tell you that anyone who has ridden a horse should know that it doesnt work like that, horseriding is not a sport where people devote their lives to it just to win, it is the partnership between the animal and the rider. just think how many years she has spent training and perfecting her horses, no body spends that much effort and time just to win!

[PiaffePony0412]

Originally Posted by atabal

i dont think so? didn't the FEI decide to use the term Hyperflexion

It came from riders and trainers prompting following the 'expose' article in St. Georg's magazine. Including Anky, who was the first person I ever heard to use the term.



really? I thought Roll Kur was/is any chin to chest riding....

'Yes.... hence my saying 'It started as tie downs, but there are a billion variations.... it's all rollkur '

anyone that has ridden a horse through in it's body knows that once you have access to their body you have absolute control. so to say you cant force horse to do X - this is totally incorrect - of course you can - that is the ENTIRE point of roll kur.

No. Totally disagree. Have ridden horses Salinero's size IN a hyperflexed frame. The 547892's of kids everyday who use draw reins incorrectly have more forceful control over their ponies than I did over an 18.2hh Lazy-Boy width Hanoverian. The horse's are not hanging on the rider the way it looks. If he wanted to buck or bolt, he did and there wasn't much stopping him. Obviously she doesn't have absolute control- remember the well publicized incident when Salinero bolted with Anky, she couldn't do anything about it and screamed for help....


if a horse is stiff from being ridden dressage then the work being done is incorrect. It it totally incorrect to say that riding the horse up, open, over the back and in self carriage is detrimental to it. Sure we should ask the horse to go Forward/down/out etc, but if the horse is working correctly, in balance etc they will not be stiff .

Well I disagree. Horse's that are ridden in the same frame, no matter how correct it is, aren't getting enough variation to make their muscles fit enough to effectively carry said correct position.


agree!



i agree with the first part, but not the second. a roll kur'd horse does NOT have a round supple back. their backs are stiff and unmoving and down a lot of the time.

When a horse's neck is that down, their back is forced up, it is physically impossible not to have a raised back... just as when grazing- the lumbar muscles pull from the hind. Just as it is physically impossible to have a horse correctly poll high with a hollow back.


this is not true! there are many schools of "classical" dressage and they have evolved over time.... however i think by the early 20th century there was a degree of stability in the theories.

Absolutely! French dressage, German dressage, Dressage for the court, there are definitely MANY things that have shaped dressage and molded it into what it is today... however, since Xenophon laid out the principles of having a horse effectively carry a rider... it has remained unchanged. The idea on which dressage is based... which is what I'm' talking about above, have been the same. And hyperflexion, as I see it, goes against this.




agree



no, the rules are laid out in the FEI rule book... so it isnt up to you and me and the judges to decide what is correct. it is however, up to the judges to AWARD correct riding. which they have not been doing lately.

Riiiiight, but that's my point. Everybody was riding tall and thin TB influenced horses until the 'Weltmeyer style' became the judges' favorite in the 80's. Bonfire really brought back the return of the lighter framed horse. Now these body types with extreme expression and huge gaits are the ones getting all the cookies. Competitive dressage goes through fads- judges create them by rewarding them and then competitor's follow suit. I'm aware dressage has rules, a lot of judges are just doing a **** poor job of following them.

agree



here I disagree . I think Anky uses her body as a weapon and the horses suffer for it.

Well you are wrong. Not even I disagree, you are wrong. Anky's horses are happy, show no negativity towards her and show no signs of abuse or irritability. They are very motivated in their work. I know this all to be fact. How could that be true if what you said is valid? MOST horses and especially not HOT horses are just not copacetic towards abuse.


I did want to add that there are plenty of correct riders/trainers at the international level. Hubertus Schmidt, Monica Theodorescu, Kyra Kyrklund, Ann-Kathrin Linsenhoff (she might be retired now) and others.

I will agree on some but not on others. And if they are so correct, why aren't they winning the Olympics multiple times? ....Just to drive my point home about the judges.... and it being UP TO THEM to show the world what is correct and what is not.

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-Piaffepony0412

[PiaffePony0412]

Libby-Jane... I never said any of that....

In fact I love Anky. She is a good person who loves her horses. Period. I just disagree with her preferred training methods.... or really, Sjef's preferred training methods. I think it has created a hurtful trend in dressage. A sport I love.

I think it's rude to assume you know what everybody on a forum's riding ability is like. There are millions of people who could ride in the Olympics and probably win, because they are great riders.... too bad only 4 can make the team.... Not everybody has the WANT, or the other 547839 things it takes to get that far in competition. Money and time being just 2.

-Piaffepony0412

[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by atabal

I did want to add that there are plenty of correct riders/trainers at the international level. Hubertus Schmidt, Monica Theodorescu, Kyra Kyrklund, Ann-Kathrin Linsenhoff (she might be retired now) and others.

-

You had a lot of other wonderful points in your post, but I did want to add that Kyra Kyrklund, while denying using hyperflexion, has supposedly been seen training with it.

[MysticRealm]

To those who say 'she never directly answered the questions' of course she didn't. She knows that no matter HOW she would answer those questions everyone would jump down her throat at her!
Personally her horse does not look at all uncomfortable during her ride. You can see the horse reaching for the bit and for the most part he is not incredibly over-curled. The only thing I don't know b/c I don't know enough about dressage is whether or not it is helpful to competing or not. Considering Anky wins a fair bit I guess it's working for her.

[atabal]

if Kyra is using Roll Kur I would be very saddened. Her horses always have been relaxed, and her warmup very horse friendly and sensible - and yet she is an incredible trainer and has done very well over the years. I don't want to pander to rumors, but lots of folks dont know the difference between roll kur and deep etc. So I guess I am saying I would have to see it to believe it. of course i hope it isnt true.

as for "You can see (AVGs) horse reaching for the bit and for the most part he is not incredibly over-curled. "

all i can say is ; have you seen AVG ride (not in tests)? because her horses couldn't curl more if they tried since their noses are literally on their chests. she also rides with her feet on the dashboard with all her weight pulling backwards against their mouths (this is what i mean by using her body as a weapon) nor do her horses reach for the bit in the correct dressage sense.

eta: to add: PiaffePony - i have no doubt that she treats her horses well in the stable. However, i stand by my comments about using her body as a weapon against the horse. This she does. She rides with her feet on the dashboard, pulling back against her horses while she has them totally defenseless (ie in roll kur)....

and again i will say that once a horse gives itself to you ( is through) then it is wide open to any action the rider gives. this is the entire point of having no blocks etc. and once you have the horses neck in a certain spot they cant defend themselves. if you haven't experienced this - fine - but it is true. Roll Kur just takes it to the extreme.

And finally there is a saying that once a horse trusts you you can do anything with it. I have found this to be true.

[atabal]

It came from riders and trainers prompting following the 'expose' article in St. Georg's magazine. Including Anky, who was the first person I ever heard to use the term.

i remember the article.... i cant remember the timeline.... the first i heard of hyperflexion, if i remember correctly, was the FEI report from the meeting they held. It would be very interesting if that is a term AVG wanted used.....

'Yes.... hence my saying 'It started as tie downs, but there are a billion variations.... it's all rollkur

would be interested in hearing how dressage riders were using tie downs.... do you mean gogues?

No. Totally disagree. Have ridden horses Salinero's size IN a hyperflexed frame. The 547892's of kids everyday who use draw reins incorrectly have more forceful control over their ponies than I did over an 18.2hh Lazy-Boy width Hanoverian. The horse's are not hanging on the rider the way it looks. If he wanted to buck or bolt, he did and there wasn't much stopping him. Obviously she doesn't have absolute control- remember the well publicized incident when Salinero bolted with Anky, she couldn't do anything about it and screamed for help....

then you didn't have the horse truly connected. If you did you would be able to influence it's entire body head to tail, etc. this is the POINT of throughness. and Roll kur takes it to the extreme.

re: the bolting. i don't remember the video, but i imagine that she didn't have the horse on the aids and connected or in roll kur when he bolted - other wise he couldn't of bolted. perhaps the lapse was momentary - not sure as i haven't seen the video of that nor was i there.

Well I disagree. Horse's that are ridden in the same frame, no matter how correct it is, aren't getting enough variation to make their muscles fit enough to effectively carry said correct position.

the masters of dressage including Podhasjky, Suenig, Seeger, Muesler, Van Shaik, et al all rode in the traditional manner and their hoses didnt have problems with being stiff. the opposite in fact. their horses looked very supple etc. Plus, I know quite a few equine body workers who will tell you a more traditionally ridden horse will have less body issues than a horse ridden deep/roll kur/crank and spank etc. why? because the traditional theories are based on the horses body and mechanics.

Correct dressage is not about locked backs etc - iit is about riding a horse thru its nature in harmony, suppleness self carriage etc etc.

my personal belief is that it takes many many years to learn to ride a horse correctly - to let go and let the horse work under you etc.... people get impatient and/or lack the skills to achieve this - so they use force and call it correct, or they try but are not skilled enough yet to get it right.... - but that does not mean the system does not produce correct horses is ridden correctly - that is the ENTORE point of it.

When a horse's neck is that down, their back is forced up, it is physically impossible not to have a raised back... just as when grazing- the lumbar muscles pull from the hind. Just as it is physically impossible to have a horse correctly poll high with a hollow back.

not quite. the back might be "up" but it inst the correct "up" that comes from raising the shoulder girdle (ie withers) .... an up bak from lowering the neck is fine when training baby, it teaches them what you are looking for... but once they build the correct muscle the raised back is really a raised wither and comes from correct usage of the body, the folding of the hind legs, etc etc (sorry i am not a body worker so my vocab for muscles etc is limited) all of this is pretty much proved scientifically by various folks.

there is a reason why so many modern dressage horses are lame, need chiros, massages etc etc. and it inst because they are being ridden correctly

Absolutely! French dressage, German dressage, Dressage for the court, there are definitely MANY things that have shaped dressage and molded it into what it is today... however, since Xenophon laid out the principles of having a horse effectively carry a rider... it has remained unchanged. The idea on which dressage is based... which is what I'm' talking about above, have been the same. And hyperflexion, as I see it, goes against this.

ahh, ok, gottit and i agree!

Riiiiight, but that's my point. Everybody was riding tall and thin TB influenced horses until the 'Weltmeyer style' became the judges' favorite in the 80's. Bonfire really brought back the return of the lighter framed horse. Now these body types with extreme expression and huge gaits are the ones getting all the cookies. Competitive dressage goes through fads- judges create them by rewarding them and then competitor's follow suit. I'm aware dressage has rules, a lot of judges are just doing a **** poor job of following them.

yes, agree - however, my weltmeyer is no lumbering beast .... and i agree there are fads - however the FEI is supposed to protect the sport from fads, etc. to bad it isnt doing it's job

Well you are wrong. Not even I disagree, you are wrong. Anky's horses are happy, show no negativity towards her and show no signs of abuse or irritability. They are very motivated in their work. I know this all to be fact. How could that be true if what you said is valid? MOST horses and especially not HOT horses are just not copacetic towards abuse.

see my comment elsewhere on this thread.

I will agree on some but not on others. And if they are so correct, why aren't they winning the Olympics multiple times? ....Just to drive my point home about the judges.... and it being UP TO THEM to show the world what is correct and what is not.

would be interested in who you think isn't correct in the list i posted? as for why are certain folks winning? money pure and simple. the powers that be want dressage to be popular - electric horse sell tickets, as does dumbed down dressage that anyone can understand ( horse with highest flinging legs wins) and the more popular they make dressage the more the breeders, vendors, sponsors, etc will rake in the big bux. and these folks are more times thatn not also the judges. very cosy little world they have , that is for sure

[Lyre]

What I really hate is that people think the fact that these people are GP riders is an excuse. That what they are doing MUST be okay and MUST be correct because they're at the highest level. It's almost as though they have authority and we lowly horse people shall not dare defy them.

If people never questioned the way things are done... well... I shudder to think what the world would be like. A bunch of copycats who cannot think for themselves. We'd all be clones. And every mistake (and yes I think rollkur is a big mistake for a rider to make) made be one person would be made by all. And injustices would merely be accepted.

I already said what I wanted to in the rollkur thread in the training forum but this interview adds another dimension of disappointment from me towards competitive dressage. It saddens me that Anky cannot see that she is being rewarded for the superficial results of rollkur that actually have nothing to do with dressage. Not to mention, her horses have no true freedom of movement. They just appear to because they spring ten feet into the air and lift their knees. They are constantly in restriction. Again - rollkur is restriction and compression, NOT stretching in any way shape or form. An extremely rounded neck does not round the back and engage the hindquarters, one of the FUNDAMENTALS of correct riding is that throughness comes from behind. If GP dressage riders don't know this then it actually frightens me to think where the sport will go next. I see no benefit and never will.

Oh and sure, if you bully a horse into an uncomfortable position enough times, they're eventually going to just submit themselves to it. That's what Sjef wants, right? Submission. Because apparently, a submissive horse is gonna do what you want it to which is all they want.