[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by PiaffePony0412

I agree that it is not correct, but I just don't agree with all the Anky hating and saying she is a horse abuser. I would like someone to point out a single successful top dressage rider that they think doesn't use hyperflexion in some fashion, and I think they would be very surprised. But unfortunately, it is apparently what the judges want to see right now, right, wrong or indifferent.

-Piaffepony0412

Klaus Balkenhol and almost all his students, including Debbie McDonald, claim to refuse to use the technique. I got to watch Balkenhol work with all levels of horses at a clinic, and he put major emphasis on pushing the horses forward and out, never deep.

I won't claim it as fact that they never ride their horses in hyperflexion when no one's looking; I would just strongly doubt it judging one by how Brentina went, and two by Balkenhol's vehement attempts to denounce hyperflexion and the Dutch training style. But what do I know? I'm only going off of what they say, and what I've seen, which is not the "behind the scenes" where all the bad stuff goes down.

I have seen hyperflexion in training, and you are right in that it's popular with a huge range of upper level riders in some shape or form.

[allison finch]

I agree with the above statement re. Klaus and Debbies techniques. AND, it reflects in their horses, in my opinion. I would never change their cooperation and correctness for "flash". A poor trade.

[PiaffePony0412]

.4allison finch- I think it is a great piaffe. Too much lift would be if the knee was higher than the elbow, which it never is, and his diagonal cannon bones are parallel for almost every step- I noted two steps that were quick and rushed from behind, and it looks like he just got a leg aid, since that is when he starts to move forward- but besides that, I think he is showing excellent self carriage and suspension.

all4him- They had a huge symposium, where they had vets from all over the world come and study Bonfire as she rode him, and then they did xrays, ultrasounds, the whole nine yards, and they apparently all came to the results that Bonfire had no abnormalties, and he has been ridden that way for yeaaars. But, who knows, and in my personal opinion, I think it does something that is unmeasurable in the horses MIND. Not to mention his relationship with the contact.

Rummymuffin- most definitely Klaus does NOT promote hyperflexion, but he certainly rides and encourages riding round and deep, just not to this extreme, which is how I would say MOST riders train. But there is still a lot of aggressive contact from the riders. I personally subscribe to the idea that the bit is for contact, and should always be soft and giving.
And while I think Debbie is a good rider, teacher and trainer, her clinics are always filled with super helpful exercises and gymnastics, I was never really a fan of her and Brentina, almost every test I've ever seen them do, Brentina is also too far behind the vertical and NOT truly through- especially in her trot extensions, there is a lot of flicking up front, but not a lot of reaching from behind. There should be over tracking.... and instead there isn't even tracking.

I.E.

YouTube - BRENTINA & DEBBIE McDONALD, GP KUR, U.S. OLYMPIC TRIALS 2008

allison finch- I agree, exchanging pizazz for correctness is a poor trade, but it is up to us the competitors and the judges to change the fad. It trickles down to even the lowest levels. It is pretty common to see a lower level test where a very correct quarter horse gets beaten out by a not so correct big flashy hanoverian. Competitive dressage exists off peoples opinions, and when there is people, unfortunately there is politics.

-Piaffepony0412

[allison finch]

Originally Posted by PiaffePony0412

.4allison finch- I think it is a great piaffe. Too much lift would be if the knee was higher than the elbow, which it never is, and his diagonal cannon bones are parallel for almost every step- I noted two steps that were quick and rushed from behind, and it looks like he just got a leg aid, since that is when he starts to move forward- but besides that, I think he is showing excellent self carriage and suspension.

-Piaffepony0412

I didn't make any reference to the "lift" of the horse. "Gaining ground" means the steps are carrying the horse forward. Piaffe is meant to be immobile. Although some forward movement is tolerated, that video shows a horse gaining way too much ground.

I will agree though, the horse is wonderful. Too bad we had to go so far back to find it, huh?

[imjustjoking22]

Originally Posted by mftowner06

Thank you!!!! I'm glad I wasn't the only one that saw that!

Of COURSE you saw that, it was extremely slow-moed in the video to make sure everyone saw it It wasn't really manipulated to be missed.

However, a high-strung horse showing a few moments of resistance does not, in my mind, prove any point....I would argue that there are very few (if any) horses on this planet who enjoy their work so much that they never resist it in any way. I certainly don't own one! I doubt most people would point out the head-shaking excitement or resistance of a horse heading around a jump course, or one out for a gallop.

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by imjustjoking22

! I doubt most people would point out the head-shaking excitement or resistance of a horse heading around a jump course,

Terry Libel does when she announces Horse shows....she will even explain how this may/can/will affect the ride to the fence on a technical line.

High level jumpers can not be hard mouth or resistant to be continuos in the jumper ring...just like Dressage...but trust me...hyperflexion can be seen in the jumper ring too....and has about as much business there as in the Dressage training ring....jmo

[MysticRealm]

Though I don't have a true 'stance' on rolkur I do not find Anky's horse to look all that uncomfortable. Sure the horse tossed it's head a couple times, I am so glad that none of your guys' horses ever resist during your rides. I ride my horse is a snaffle and try my hardest to NOT allow my horse to overflex b/c that is where he is most comfortable and he will still toss his head if he finds something difficult or just wants to be silly. I find that what Anky is doing in the video is not torture or abuse or anything near that. I don't have a problem with it, I have seen it done where the horse is clearly uncomfortable with the whites of the eyes showing, mouth incredibly lathered up, horse's head is touching it's chest and yes I disagree with that.
But I do not have the knowledge or know how to say whether it is actually helpful training wise.

[farmeress]

The difference Mystic...is that alot of times....when you watch a rider doing hyperflexion...it is not off the snaffle but from the curb....and some of those ports...are deep...and those flashes/nosebands are cranked shut.

I too do not believe it is actual abuse...it is incorrect Dressage training that causes more resistance than acceptance.....jmo.

[mftowner06]

I think this video was posted on the other discussion that we had on Rollkur... but wanted to post it again....

YouTube - rollkur explained

[PiaffePony0412]

honestly? I think that video is super drama ridden and full of opinions that aren't really on topic with this discussion. You can't compare human anatomy to horse anatomy, and as I have already posted, SO FAR, we have no factual evidence that hyperflexion causes any physical problems to the horses ridden with it.

This thread was intended to be educational through discussion. There are millions of dramatic, slow mo videos about rollkur with songs that have epic bass lines in the background on youtube, but that isn't what I posted.
-Piaffepony0412