[Reitpferde]

PiaffePony - excellent explanation. It makes perfect sense to me.

This is the extent, to which I bend: (sorry about the huge size..can never figure it out...). That usually happens, when my boy decides to fly swat with his front legs - a nice way for him to evade. So, this will last a few seconds.

[kittxthexcat]

subscribing to watch later!

[farmeress]

Originally Posted by PiaffePony0412

I agree that it is not correct, but I just don't agree with all the Anky hating and saying she is a horse abuser. I would like someone to point out a single successful top dressage rider that they think doesn't use hyperflexion in some fashion, and I think they would be very surprised. But unfortunately, it is apparently what the judges want to see right now, right, wrong or indifferent.

-Piaffepony0412

I do not agree with Rolkur or such training techniques....but...I will say...I have never accused any of the people...even Anky..of abuse...nor have I personally attacked her as a rider...she is not the only one using it...she just happens to be the most famous for it

It is always the technique of rollkur/hyperflexion I aim my comments at

[magic_rider]

Note during the video she avoided answering the question, the majority of the time was spent talking around it.

[allison finch]

Originally Posted by PiaffePony0412

And you are absolutely right. But unfortunately, the competitive world isn't that way. I have been to FEI shows and watched riders fight over the curb with their horse in the warm up ring.
Her horse there, I think it is Nelson, is obviously protesting, but he is not acting like it is painful or he doesn't understand, or anything that suggests cruelty. It is no more than the same fighting over the bit you see in every jumper round from here to Timbuktu. It is not cruel, but it also not very represenative of true dressage, where contact should be light and willing.

Here is a very correct piaffe, where the horse is through, his back up, yet OTV rather than behind it:
YouTube - Akhal-Teke Dressage Stallion Absent performing Piaffe

-Piaffepony0412

Correct piaffe? Not really. It has a few really nice steps, but it is, overall, gaining too much ground to be considered correct. The steps are inconsistent, IMO.


I do not use Rolkur as I believe it teaches a horse to evade the bit on so many levels. I train, mostly in snaffle, and use very light curb MOST of the time, with few exceptions.

[lbandrew]

I'm really not a fan of Anky. Never have been, though I know she's definitely not the only one to use Rolkur. Her reasoning behind doing it was stupid, in my opinion. Rolkur causes all sorts of problems - incorrect head carriage could result in calcium deposits on the skull. She explains how it makes her horse "supple"... I really think it's doing anything but that. The method may be working for her, but as she said it doesn't work for every horse, and that makes me think that hyper-flexion really has nothing to do with the results she's getting.

The video was interesting, but it doesn't change my mind about Anky or Rolkur.

[EQRider]

Originally Posted by farmeress

To me...I control a runaway and train a horse.

No matter how it is explained to me....I do not find the technique correct.

Tension is not training anything more than resistance...and that is what I see.

Thank you, I 100% agree.

I'm not as educated in Dressage as other disciplines, but I just hate the way that horse in Anky's video is moving. Nothing looks comfortable or natural about cranking a horses head in that far...just before 2 minutes the horse is literally shaking his head out and trying to stretch his neck...

I don't understand the reason that a horse needs to collect it's head in so far it could suck on his chest if it wanted...what is the point to it?

[all4him]

Originally Posted by mftowner06

I am not a dressage rider - but from the videos that I have seen of Rodkur/hyperflexion and mind you this is my opinion the horse just looks really uncomfortable. In the video above you can see the horse is uncomfortable, he kept trying to come out of the flexion she had him in and shake his head. The other video that I posted about the horse that was in the hyperflexion position and his tongue was hanging out and it was blue! It's like you and I going around all day with chins tucked into our chests.

That's just my opinion though..ugh

Yep - fully agree with you here.

[all4him]

Originally Posted by PiaffePony0412

Reitsport, Anky coined the term hyperflexion to get away from the term rollkur. Rollkur originally was tying a horses head down in that frame and riding him like that, but there are a billion variations on the same method... as with everything.

I am agreement with Anky that horses are still horses and if there is something they don't want to do, they won't do it.

I am in 1000% in agreement with Anky that variation is completely necessary. Klimke thought this, Kottas teaches this, etc. Riding around in competition frame all day gets you a stiff horse. I always warm my horse up very forward, very round and very bent. I over exaggerate everything, make sure he is loose and supple- this is essentially the same idea put forward.

HOWEVER, the main fork in the road here, and what you won't hear Anky say, is that she, Sjef and all of their students are taught to ride their horses this way for expression- which unfortunately is what monopolizes the dressage ring these days, rather than correctness.

I think Anky is a good rider, a good trainer and a good horse person. All of her horses are well cared for and happy. I think her training method is simply the most publicized of thousands of other 'controversial' methods used by top professionals.
My personal PROBLEM with this method however, is that we are getting away from the principles of dressage to focus on bigger more expressive gaits. It has become a bit more of a breed show.

Hyperflexion is the overexaggerated bend of the horses neck so he is 'super round', bringing his back as up as it can be. It takes stronger development of a horses muscles to carry himself and the rider this way. The main problem with this, as with any horse being BTV, is they are not through from behind, they are physically unable to reach under themselves to the correct extent. The advantage, is a round, supple back and neck- lots to work with. This is the same advantage you get when warming up a horse round, low and deep, but to the utmost extreme.

The benefit, is when you bring them UP into competition frame, that forward mindset combined with release from the overexaggerated bend means they are able to carry themselves easier and with more freedom than before, emphasizing their huge expressive gaits. No doubt, Bonfire, Salinero, Painted Black, etc., are all good movers, but their movement has really been 'brought out' by hyperflexion- training them in an overexaggerated, and more restricted frame.

The downside? Easy- lack of throughness. They may have big and fancy gaits, but some of their movements aren't true, and most of these horses wind up bent at the 3rd and 4th vertabrae rather than poll high. Also, when hyperflexion is trained in often enough that it becomes a 'comfort zone', since I guarantee that these horses are ridden more BTV than OTV, the horses have a tendency to slip back into it- most often in piaffe and passage. Most of these horses are unable to SIT BACK in these movements and let the impulsion move forward, instead, they round their neck low back into a btv position, whilst falling on the forehand. Here is a video showing what I am talking about:
Edward Gal also trains in hyperflexion, and while this horse is no doubt beautiful, and moves amazingly, he is MUCH too short in the neck to truly be carrying himself forward, and you can see that the entire ride, Edward is focused on PUSHING his head up and out, since he keeps trying to round in.

YouTube - Edward Gal on Moorlands Totilas, Kur Dressage test, Hickstead Sun 26th July 2009

Hyperflexion is also used as a bit of a 'control' thing for many riders.

It really boils down to a relationship you create between the bit and your horse. Modern competitive dressage training is MUCH more about 'acquiring' contact than it is asking- as it is in classical dressage. Classical dressage has been the same since it began- over 2000 years ago. But competitive dressage goes through the ups and downs that come with fads, popularity and money. The high stepping horse whose knees almost touch his chin is WAY IN right now, and with time, I'm sure it too will pass, but correctness is in forever. It is really up to US and the judges to what is considered successful and correct in the show ring. As long as Anky and Gal keep receiving record breaking scores from judges who are obviously blinded by their horses flashiness, then they will be the ones setting the standard.

All of that being said, I don't think hyperflexion is cruel, in the way Anky uses it, could you ride a horse this way and make it cruel? most definitely. As you could work a horse in side reins cruelly.

-Piaffepony0412

Great post! I think there ARE those who abuse it and some who use it as a training tool but I think it's a tool used too often and not well. I'd hate to see a horse working in that frame for a full 10 minutes. A few seconds? A few strides? Maybe. But more than that has them working at such unnatural angles that it is just wrong, IMO. I could be 100% wrong, but would WE work well all bent around like that??? YIKES!

One thing I've always wondered - does it make it difficult for the horse to breathe? I mean it looks like the airway would be severely restricted there!

[Rummymuffin]

Originally Posted by farmeress

I do not agree with Rolkur or such training techniques....but...I will say...I have never accused any of the people...even Anky..of abuse...nor have I personally attacked her as a rider...she is not the only one using it...she just happens to be the most famous for it

It is always the technique of rollkur/hyperflexion I aim my comments at

She's the most famous for it because she's dominated international dressage for the last decade, and completely toppled the Germans' previous dynasty.

This thread is like deja vu, though I have to give props to PiaffePony for saying a lot the stuff I wasn't able to coherently put together in the other thread.