[horsesare1]

Originally Posted by sorrell

I don't think one wrong condones another wrong. You could say the same thing about human children and whether the parents had them because they really loved children and wanted to raise them or just because they didn't feel like worrying about birth control or were hoping they could make a profit off the government, etc...
The kids, and the horses should not have to suffer because the parents/owners made bad mistakes. If people were responsible, sensible, realistic and not out for a quick buck, then the problem would not exist. the housing market, stray cats, all fall into the same category. Killing stray cats is not the answer to the stray cat population anymore than slaughtering horses solves the abandonment problem. i don't wish to be rude, but it does not take a genious to figure that one out.
I don't think we want more government regulation into how many children we can have according to our ability to raise them, nor be told we cannot own a horse because our income level is too vulnerable, etc. We don't want to be fined $1000 for not spaying our female pets or breeding them hoping to sell the babies and then finding no one wants them, etc.
It is a matter of taking personal responsibility for ones actions and doing the right thing and supporting organizations that do find homes for the homeless and are willing to help people until they can get back on their feet. Those are actions most animal lovers take... helping support adoption agencies, helping provide food and shelter for an unwanted animal, helping to train an unwanted animal to help it get a better home, etc.
All good actions I think, as opposed to destroying something that has now become an inconvenience and needs to be gotten rid of not due to any fault of its own.

Couldn't agree more. People are not responsible for their own actions/decisions when it comes to their animals. They buy them, but have no plan for them if something were to happen to guarantee that animals safety and well being.

[spinandslide]

Originally Posted by notanumber

I don't have the concentration this early (and after a few margaritas the night before!) to make a long, thoughtful post, but here's a thought:
There is obviously an overabundance of horses right now, especially in the US (but I believe also way up here in the Great White North). There are thousands of unwanted horses producing more unwanted horses contributing to the problem. I think maybe more attention should be diverted to stopping the hemorrhage rather than how to siphon off the excess. Breeding licenses? Horse ownership regulation? Required castration? And then maybe the painful questions of what to do with all these unwanted horses will be a little more manageable. Yes, they are unwanted. I hate the idea too.

I have a question..I know I hear alot of regulations for breeding and such..there has actually been proposals put forth, in regards to dogs in this aspect.

Dog Breeders support Education..and venomently oppose regulation. the problem with regulation is who decides who breeds and who doesnt? Who decides how many horses we get to own? who decides which horses should be required to be castrated?

What defines a "good" breeder in the horse world? Is it by the number of foals, the quality of the foals? the foal's show record? their conformation? and AGAIN, WHO decides all this?

[mftx4]

Can we get the breeders associations and registries to kick in with restrictions as to allowing only a certain number of animals being bred per year? Should there be a government fund set up to pay for stallions in wild herds to be castrated every year? Do adoptees of rescue horses have to meet a certain criteria to adopt such as education and income. How do you go about educating the 'backyard breeder' on the fact that their horse isn't good enough to be bred?
With sanctuaries and rescues, when they can no longer able to take in more, do we ask our local goverment to help provide such places? Purhaps provide a list, through some agency, of people willing to take in someone's unwanted horse.
Can we get local vets to provide free or reduced cost vet care once a month? Some in our area will do this for dogs and cats, why not horses? I've seen some sites that now promote free euth.
If you have an arena or large facility in your area, could you get some of the farriers' in your area to do some hoof care at a reduced cost once a month? Maybe voluteer, if you have a trailer, to take your neighbors horse if they don't have a way to haul.
When I call my farrier to do my horses, several neighbors bring theirs, and he does them all. If he has 6 or more to do, he will knock off $5.00 a head because he can make as much as $500.00 with one stop.
A friend and I used to buy grain together at a local feed store. We would buy it together because if we bought in bulk, rather than bags, it saved us both money.
Just some thoughts and ideas.

[denraydar]

'If' there was a safe, effective, less invasive, inexpensive method of sterilization for mares and stallions the problem of population explosion could be curbed dramatically. Yes I realize that 'hypotheticals' do not solve real problems. But most real solutions begin as an untested theory. If monies for research were granted then Universities with Veterinary Medicine programs could concentrate on discovering better methods of equine sterilization rather than spending so much on the reproductive end of that spectrum. The big corporations that make feed, tack, equine medicines, the horse registration groups, racing industry ect. , heck any business making a fortune in equine related industries should provide contributions for this. Once a viable method is developed then federal income tax breaks could be granted to individuals who voluntarily sterilize their horse. I am not saying every horse should be altered, I am stating that a monetary incentive like a tax deduction may persuade someone to do it. Excess population of any species can be controlled in two ways, birth control, or elimination in one way or another of excess populace. And nature itself has a process of elimination for excess horses that are left to roam at an uncontrolled birthing rate. It is known as starvation. And in Nature it is just as cruel as when the horse is in the possession of a human. It is a slow painfull death either way.


The BLM is run with federal tax dollars. They are trying some birth control methods with limited sucess. But it is not enough. They are so busy corraling and maintaining excess horses and so overburdened with the costs of feeding and penning them that they are running out of resources. And still more horses are being born every day. It is a never ending, ever growing concern that is costing a fortune. Proactivity rather than reactivity needs to happen. Tax dollars need to be diverted from this endless cycle into finding a workable sterilization method for the BLM, equine rescue groups and private individual horse owners. That is my bottom line. It is a suggestion and I am not wealthy enough to make it happen!


And they call China a developing nation? Looks like they are more developed than the US. They are practicing an agressive popualtion control method through mandatory birth control and birthing limits of people. We cannot even agree to do this with animals here.

[spinandslide]

Originally Posted by denraydar

'If' there was a safe, effective, less invasive, inexpensive method of sterilization for mares and stallions the problem of population explosion could be curbed dramatically. Yes I realize that 'hypotheticals' do not solve real problems. But most real solutions begin as an untested theory. If monies for research were granted then Universities with Veterinary Medicine could concentrate on discovering better methods of equine sterilization rather than spending so much on the reproductive end of that spectrum. The big corporations that make feed, tack, equine medicines, the horse registration groups, racing industry ect. , heck any business making a fortune in equine related industries should provide contributions for this. Once a viable method is developed then federal income tax breaks could be granted to individuals who voluntarily sterilize their horse. I am not saying every horse should be altered, I am stating that a monetary incentive like a tax deduction may persuade someone to do it. Excess population of any species can be controlled in two ways, birth control, or elimination in one way or another of excess populace. And nature itself has a process of elimination for excess horses that are left to roam at an uncontrolled birthing rate. It is known as starvation. And in Nature it is just as cruel as when the horse is in the possession of a human. It is a slow painfull death either way.

The BLM is run with federal tax dollars. They are trying some birth control methods with limited sucess. But it is not enough. They are so busy corraling and maintaining excess horses and so overburdened with the costs of feeding and penning them that they are running out of resources. And still more horses are being born every day. It is a never ending, ever growing concern that is costing a fortune. Proactivity rather than reactivity needs to happen. Tax dollars need to be diverted from this endless cycle into finding a workable sterilization method for the BLM, equine rescue groups and private individual horse owners. That is my bottom line. It is a suggestion and I am not wealthy enough to make it happen!

Dont mean to be the perverbial rain, but I highly doubt this country is either.

[mftx4]

Does anyone know of any orginized 'grassroot' groups working on any of these issues? Not just the wild horses, but people enlightening others and educating them about issues pertaining to horses?

[Rider23663]

Originally Posted by Stormyheart6160

You haven't been in this battle very long have you? I can pretty much tell by your statements above. IF....you think you can get laws passed, AND enforced, without any loopholes....have at it!!! You will gain much more resistance to that than we anti's get from the pro's on slaughter. Simply because it will take a LOT of money to acheive and enforce!!! Even then....what to do with the horses confiscated will become an expense. Who's gonna pay for all this?

Stormy, I have to admit, I love your passion about this... and yes, I am new to the battle.....

However, I am trying to look at this issue outside of slaughter. I'm not going in that direction with this conversation.... I am worried more about the horses that are showing up in people's corrals and in parks. We need to find a solution for them and find it soon. There are a lot of "unwanted" horses, and hopefully, we can find a solution before one is found for us.

I've also seen where a lot of people push the overpopulation of horses on people who let a horse breed.... personally, I think that is too quick of a snap judgement. A lot of these horses are also coming from the lesser employed people that we don't hear about. I know, because I am now one of the "lesser employed".... I was laid off from my job making $60K a year, but managed to pickup another job making $24K a year. I am lesser employed rather than unemployed... because I have a job, and therefore don't qualify for unemployment benifits, ect.... and therefore, I am not counted in the recession statistics. Fortunately, I already didn't have a horse when it happened... which is a really good thing. I would not have had the money to properly care for the horse and still maintain a roof over my own head.

A lot of people are in the same situation.... My worry is that the number of horses turned loose will increase the longer this situation goes on. Unfortunately, I also see the government putting a 10% to 20% tax on horse feed and horse tack to help cover the cost of unwanted horses... followed eventually by restrictions on numbers of horses allowable per owner, and/or mandatory steralization of all privately owned horses.

Hopefully we can work together on this, because the alternative could see us all losing something we love

John

[Stormyheart6160]

Everyone has made some very good and valid points, and suggestions. The problem isn't that these ideas can't or won't work. The problem is, all of them are gonna cost US, the horse owners more money than we are already paying to have and keep our animals.

For myself, I have no problem paying more.....IF the excess expenses I pay are going to go to help these homeless animals, rather than just killing them off and forgetting that they were once owned and loved by someone.

Myself and many other members on here have discussed these very same ideas over and over again......the ONLY reason they get shot down, is because of the expense of them. Most don't want to have to pay for what someone else had. Bottom line!

We live in a country where our citizens are used to doing what we want, where we want, with what we have. We have to take responsibility all the way.....not just until it's not convenient or productive for us anymore.

In previous slaughter threads, I suggested breeders having to buy a license to breed, and stallion owners having to purchase a permit to own a stallion. With the money collected for breeding and owning stallions, it gets put towards the care/and or euthanasia of homeless horses. The breeders went ballistic over it!

In previous slaughter threads, I have suggested more rendering plants, at least one in every county. Especially where burial is illegal. They don't just take horses....they also take all the roadkill, ect. That got shot down, because I was told there wasn't enough dead animals to make a rendering plant in every county profitable.

In previous slaughter threads, I have suggested anyone purchasing an animal, be required to take classes on the proper care of said animal....money spent for classes, would also go towards the care/euthanasia of homeless animals. NOPE! While people think the class itself is a good idea....they don't want to have to pay for it.

In previous slaughter threads, I have suggested ID'ing any and all animals to be able to track all of them, especially in the case of abandonment or just plain ol'. "the animal escaped". That way, people bringing animals to shelters they owned, in poor condition, or abandoning them, would stand a very good chance of being identified and prosecuted. Two reasons that one didn't fly......1.) It sounded too much like the National Animal Identification System, which everyone seems to be against. 2.) It would cost the taxpayers MORE money to prosecute and have these individuals serve jail time. OH, yea....there is a 3rd reason! 3.) The argument was given that IF someone can't afford to pay for the care of their animals and allow them to become poor, then they probably won't be able to pay any court costs or fines either. I suggested any moneys collected be used to care for and or euthanise the homeless animals.

So, you see....all of these ideas have been hashed over, and hashed over. The resistance to any kind of idea besides slaughter is greater than the idea of slaughter itself.

So, that is why we anti's have pretty much stopped trying to find a solution, other than slaughter, and focus on banning the slaughter of horses all together.

[mftx4]

Maybe if we all stop talking on the internet about it and go out into our horse communities, we could get something done. Talk to your vets and farriers, find out some facts about the situation in your particular area. I live in Illinois and there isn't much I can do to organize people in Kansas, but you could, Stormy. Get a group of 'like minded' people together and find out the issues in your area. Find out if there are saddle clubs in your community and speak with some of them. We both know that the big breeders have their own way of dealing with problems. They aren't willing to kick $10.00 a month into a fund to help the little guy out. How many of them would volenteer to help teach and inform novice owners once a month? There are many talented and intelligent people right here that could be working in their area's to better enhance the live's of horses. How many do?

[KristinJ]

I'm on the fence about this too... there are just far too many neglected horses out there. Just today, a farm down the road from me had 5 horses loose on my property. I went out to help 'corral' them. All 5 were skinny =( Hips/back bones protruding out and ribs showing. The owner said 'ohh i don't feed her at all because she keeps her weight' ... my blood pressure was shooting through the roof!! I walked them back to her house, to find 15 more ponies/horses all were in TERRIBLE living conditions. Mud/poop, small pastures. 3 Studs ... GELD THEM! haha.

I may call the humane society on them .. but really they will not do a thing. The owner has a huge grass field that she will say they eat up, and she will say the others are old and hard to keep weight on. The worse they will do is fine her .. which she really needs all the money she can get to feed these horses ... so that won't due the horses any good. She lets them free on her property ... they get loose ALL THE TIME. What happens when one gets hit by a car? ANd the driver gets seriously hurt .. some people are STUPID and don't deserve them. Yes maybe some of these horses can be turned around and become great horses for someone .. but who? The economy is bad and people who really love horses probably already have too many on their plate and people who have lots of money, aren't going to 'rescue' a horse and rehab it, they are going to go to a breeder and spent $20,000 on their horse ... it's sad but for the most part true.

I don't know if Slaughter is the answer but in some ways it seems better than being neglected in a field by an owner way over their head.