A Perfectly arched neck,,,on the bit help

Jumpers · 02-19-2004, 04:21 PM

A horse can travel long and low and NOT be on the forehand. I'm not talking peanut roller here. I'm talking a neckset such as you would achieve on the longe line with side reins attached to a surcingle on the lowest ring. I don't know a dressage rider alive who doesn't longe in side reins at least ocassionally. If this cause their horse to stumble around on the forehand, we would not do it.

Jumpers · 02-19-2004, 04:25 PM

Check out this link:
Reiner Klimke's Long and Low

It shows a horse traveling long and low to stretch the back muscles. This horse is CLEARLY not fallen onto the forehand. There is absolutely nothing incorrect about asking a horse to go long and low to stretch the back muscles, but then encouraging the neck upward into a higher set. We can all agree that the neckset in Training level is much lower than the neckset at PSG, etc.

Horsebrat20 · 02-19-2004, 04:45 PM

My mare does that when i ride her. How do i tell her it's ok to do that when we first start riding and warming up, but after that she must "encouraging the neck upward into a higher set" quoted by Jumpers.

Jumpers · 02-19-2004, 04:50 PM

By shortening your rein while encouraging her forward with the seat and legs. All dressage tests call for a "free walk on a long rein" in which the horse must be given 100% of the reins. He must walk in a big swinging walk with the head stretched down and long. When the free walk is over, the rider regains the reins, takes up the appropriate contact and finishes the test.

slc · 02-19-2004, 05:12 PM

''slc, you're saying that half halting has nothing to do with being "on the bit"? So, you just push the horse forward? Funny, cause when I do that, the horse gets strewn out, goes as fast as he can, falls on the forehand, and his head shoots up.''

no, i am not saying that. i am saying that spongeing the reins isn't half halting, and having the head down is not what 'on the bit' is.

<small>[ February 19, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: slc ]</small>

Dawn · 02-19-2004, 06:28 PM

Quote:

slc:
no, i am not saying that. i am saying that spongeing the reins isn't half halting, and having the head down is not what 'on the bit' is.

If you'll read the post directly before yours, you will see that sponging is being used in the description of a half halt.

"Encourage forward momentum, and half halt with the reins (sponging) at the same time. The second the horse's head drops, stop half halting."

Now, perhaps that's not what you were referring to, but it appeared that way. Every time that I see "sponging" used in this thread it is accompanied by driving with the seat and legs.

Maybe you could clarify who you were disagreeing with.

EventingDayDream · 02-19-2004, 06:54 PM

I'm not against half halts, but I am with slc on the the fact that spunging, sea-sawing, sqeezing are all fake methods of getting a horses head down. That is what is used by hunter pleasure riders, not dressage rides. I used to think my horse was on the bit (the one I'm working w/ now) before I took him to my trainer. I would play with my reins until he put his head down. He trotted along with his head on the vertical and I thought he was "on the bit" but I was very sadly mistaken. When a horse is beginning, the only way to have a horse on the bit is to keep a constant pressure on both reins and use your legs to push him to your reins. He may be resitant for a little bit, but percivere. As soon as he gives, give your inside reins forward as a reward but then take it back again. Working on a circle is a good way to begin because then you can use an inside flexion to your advantage as well. My trainer often refers to the reins as the "front door" he must always be pushing on the door, but never step through it. If you don't have the front door closed (ie a constant pressure on the reins) there will be nothing to push you horse into, no way for him to seek the bit. yes sometime a little "sponging" is used to soften a horses jaw and neck when they become stiff and resistant, but that is not a correct way to put a horse on the bit. For a begining horse it might feel like he is heavy on the reins for a little bit, but you must have that connection or you have nothing. Although my horse isn't young, he is seriously a wiggle worm. The only way to keep him straight forward and on the bit is to ride with very quite hands and an active leg. When someone sponges constantly or sea saws on the reins a horse will eventually lock his jaw and learn to wag his head. You have achieved nothing by this. It is extremely important that there is a constant pressure on both reins so there is something for a horse to reach out to when starting a new dressage horse. Sponging can be used though when a horse is very stiff and un relaxed in the jaw, but not to get him on the vertical. That only achieves a false frame and no real connection, no real roundness in the back.

EventingDayDream · 02-19-2004, 06:55 PM

btw I am not disagreeing with anyone, just putting in my 2 cents worth on what I have been taught, and I know from experience it works

Jumpers · 02-19-2004, 07:25 PM

Half halting is EXTREMELY important to getting a horse on the bit! What do you propose doing? Pulling back on the reins constantly? That makes for a hard mouth and an unresponsive horse.

I'm not saying throw away all contact. There is always a gentle feel to the rein, but I'll tell you what eventingdaydream - I could completely DROP my reins onto Twos' neck and she would continue on, "on the bit" with her head on the vertical, and moving under herself completely. You should NEVER have to hold a horse on the bit, such as you are describing.

I know a dressage "trainer" who holds her horses mouth with about 20 pounds of pressure on each rein constantly. When I ride her horses I simply do not have enough muscle to hold them in the bridle. A horse should NEVER EVER EVER have to be ridden in this fashion.

slc - the horse cannot be on the bit if the head and neck are stuck up in the stars and the back is hollow. It simply is NOT possible. Half halting is beneficial for getting the horse to listen to the rider and supple the jaw.

Super_Trooper · 02-19-2004, 07:33 PM

Yes I can also ride my horse with just my legs and seat..and keep him "on the bit". half haulting IS very important for trainging for this.

Spunging the reins is a light, "contact, release, contact, release", you should not have to be contantly pulling on the mouth to acheive bend, suppleness, and "on the bit".

02-19-2004, 04:45 PM	#13
Horsebrat20 Senior Member+ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: RI Posts: 1,629 Images: 43	My mare does that when i ride her. How do i tell her it's ok to do that when we first start riding and warming up, but after that she must "encouraging the neck upward into a higher set" quoted by Jumpers. __________________ "The biggest enemy to the partnership of dressage is impatience and the human nature to dominate other creatures." Walter Zettl

02-19-2004, 06:54 PM	#17
EventingDayDream Senior Member+ Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 3,539 Images: 77	I'm not against half halts, but I am with slc on the the fact that spunging, sea-sawing, sqeezing are all fake methods of getting a horses head down. That is what is used by hunter pleasure riders, not dressage rides. I used to think my horse was on the bit (the one I'm working w/ now) before I took him to my trainer. I would play with my reins until he put his head down. He trotted along with his head on the vertical and I thought he was "on the bit" but I was very sadly mistaken. When a horse is beginning, the only way to have a horse on the bit is to keep a constant pressure on both reins and use your legs to push him to your reins. He may be resitant for a little bit, but percivere. As soon as he gives, give your inside reins forward as a reward but then take it back again. Working on a circle is a good way to begin because then you can use an inside flexion to your advantage as well. My trainer often refers to the reins as the "front door" he must always be pushing on the door, but never step through it. If you don't have the front door closed (ie a constant pressure on the reins) there will be nothing to push you horse into, no way for him to seek the bit. yes sometime a little "sponging" is used to soften a horses jaw and neck when they become stiff and resistant, but that is not a correct way to put a horse on the bit. For a begining horse it might feel like he is heavy on the reins for a little bit, but you must have that connection or you have nothing. Although my horse isn't young, he is seriously a wiggle worm. The only way to keep him straight forward and on the bit is to ride with very quite hands and an active leg. When someone sponges constantly or sea saws on the reins a horse will eventually lock his jaw and learn to wag his head. You have achieved nothing by this. It is extremely important that there is a constant pressure on both reins so there is something for a horse to reach out to when starting a new dressage horse. Sponging can be used though when a horse is very stiff and un relaxed in the jaw, but not to get him on the vertical. That only achieves a false frame and no real connection, no real roundness in the back. __________________ BAYLOREQUESTRIAN "Sic Em Bears!" OBAMA/BIDEN '08

02-19-2004, 06:55 PM	#18
EventingDayDream Senior Member+ Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 3,539 Images: 77	btw I am not disagreeing with anyone, just putting in my 2 cents worth on what I have been taught, and I know from experience it works __________________ BAYLOREQUESTRIAN "Sic Em Bears!" OBAMA/BIDEN '08

02-19-2004, 07:33 PM	#20
Super_Trooper Senior Member+ Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: BC Canada Posts: 9,472 Images: 77	Yes I can also ride my horse with just my legs and seat..and keep him "on the bit". half haulting IS very important for trainging for this. Spunging the reins is a light, "contact, release, contact, release", you should not have to be contantly pulling on the mouth to acheive bend, suppleness, and "on the bit". __________________ True commitment begins when you reach the point of not knowing how you could possibly go on, and deciding to do it anyway! http://b1.lilypie.com/mCKWm7/.png

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02-19-2004, 04:21 PM	#11
Jumpers Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,216	A horse can travel long and low and NOT be on the forehand. I'm not talking peanut roller here. I'm talking a neckset such as you would achieve on the longe line with side reins attached to a surcingle on the lowest ring. I don't know a dressage rider alive who doesn't longe in side reins at least ocassionally. If this cause their horse to stumble around on the forehand, we would not do it.

02-19-2004, 04:25 PM	#12
Jumpers Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,216	Check out this link: Reiner Klimke's Long and Low It shows a horse traveling long and low to stretch the back muscles. This horse is CLEARLY not fallen onto the forehand. There is absolutely nothing incorrect about asking a horse to go long and low to stretch the back muscles, but then encouraging the neck upward into a higher set. We can all agree that the neckset in Training level is much lower than the neckset at PSG, etc.

02-19-2004, 04:50 PM	#14
Jumpers Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,216	By shortening your rein while encouraging her forward with the seat and legs. All dressage tests call for a "free walk on a long rein" in which the horse must be given 100% of the reins. He must walk in a big swinging walk with the head stretched down and long. When the free walk is over, the rider regains the reins, takes up the appropriate contact and finishes the test.

02-19-2004, 05:12 PM	#15
slc Full Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: ohio Posts: 294	''slc, you're saying that half halting has nothing to do with being "on the bit"? So, you just push the horse forward? Funny, cause when I do that, the horse gets strewn out, goes as fast as he can, falls on the forehand, and his head shoots up.'' no, i am not saying that. i am saying that spongeing the reins isn't half halting, and having the head down is not what 'on the bit' is. <small>[ February 19, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: slc ]</small>

02-19-2004, 07:25 PM	#19
Jumpers Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,216	Half halting is EXTREMELY important to getting a horse on the bit! What do you propose doing? Pulling back on the reins constantly? That makes for a hard mouth and an unresponsive horse. I'm not saying throw away all contact. There is always a gentle feel to the rein, but I'll tell you what eventingdaydream - I could completely DROP my reins onto Twos' neck and she would continue on, "on the bit" with her head on the vertical, and moving under herself completely. You should NEVER have to hold a horse on the bit, such as you are describing. I know a dressage "trainer" who holds her horses mouth with about 20 pounds of pressure on each rein constantly. When I ride her horses I simply do not have enough muscle to hold them in the bridle. A horse should NEVER EVER EVER have to be ridden in this fashion. slc - the horse cannot be on the bit if the head and neck are stuck up in the stars and the back is hollow. It simply is NOT possible. Half halting is beneficial for getting the horse to listen to the rider and supple the jaw.