[guess who]

ok, this might be a long post I want to buy a young warmblood colt or filly sometime soon, towrds the end of the year or beginning of next year. First things first- my trainer was stud manager for a very prominent warmblood stud here for quite a few years so its possible for me to get said warmblood cheap, provided the one we buy is young and unbacked which is fine with me. Now, I don't know whether I want a colt or a filly. I get on better with geldings and stallions generally, but I actually want to use it for breeding. So I'm thinking that i should buy a filly, back her and do basics then put her into foal and let her have a foal, then hopefully bring her back to work. Obviously we wouldn't breed the filly if she wasn't up to standard, we'd have to sell her and look at another option. My thinking is that its more affordable to have the filly and buy a covering from a stallion. The other option is to get the colt, and cover perhaps a TB mare with him. I have to stress again at this point that we are NOT talking about breeding any old horses, I would never do that. i know the problems associated with it and the foal bred would hopefully be my own competition horse. If it didn't meet my requirements, the foal would be sold to a caring home (of which there are plenty for warmbloods here, i promise). If the foal was really good, we might consider selling the original broodmare. It all depends on how well everything goes.
So thats the first question, do you reckon a filly or a colt?

Second (we're supposing its a mare now); supposing I bought say a yearling or two year old, and waited for it to turn three would I be able to put it in foal at 3 and break it in its first month or so of pregnancy? Or would I be better breaking her, doing basics and then putting her in foal also at the age of between 3 and 4? Is 3 too young, in YOUR opinion. I know a lot of people do it at 3, but i want to hear what others think.

After the pregnancy it takes 3 to 6 months for weaning. Once the foal is weaned how long is it before the mare can start working again? And how far into pregnancy can it be worked? I would guess you'd be fine up to about 5 or 6 months, but past that? Can you work normally up to a certain point, or should it be light work all the way? This mare would either be only broken and had basic schooling, or be being broken during the first month of pregnancy (assuming the AI went to plan), depending on what we decide is the best way to go. hehe. Which will be a considered decision, with advice from plenty fo trainers adn breeders. And you guys, obviously


Thank you guys. Please, don't flame me for considering this. I know I sound like an ignorant child with big dreams and no sense of realism, but I want to know what you think. This is still only in planning stages, but I'm hoping it'll happen when we open our livery yard. And yes, all these questions will be going through my trainer as well, and a lady we know who owns a well known connemara stud, and lots of research and careful planning will go into this. It won't be a careless 'any mare and any stallion can make a foal' kinda thing. and for sure, you guys will be seeing my stallion/mare choices I don't know about the whole breeding thing yet, its something I'm new to, but really want to start exploring seriously.

[RuthHound]

Well, I haven't done much breeding, but I have done alot of training. And I would say you break in the mare BEFORE she is bred. You want to have time and not be rushed by a pregnancy. Also, some mares are difficult to work with after they foal...they get "grouchy"...lol. I have worked with alot of young ex-racehorses (hot-blooded thoroughbreds) and I wouldn't want to mess with an untrained one that has a foal too. You want to have a horse that respects and trusts you...not an unbroken flighty mare. Also, remember...mother teaches baby!

[guess who]

I'm thinking the same, but thats why I was wondering if i did it like as she was being bred if it would be ok. Having said that though, I think it'd end up being broken before the insemination, just because I'd let it settle and stuff before putting it in foal. Obviously, even if she wasn't broke i'd make sure she had a very good groundwork basis and was responding to and respecting me before I put her in foal. Thanks for the thoughts

bumping this up a bit for all you people on the other side of the world

[Appylvr]

You can start riding and conditioning her about a month after foaling. My friend did this and actually would leave the foal at home for an hour or so at a time while she went on trail. I don't think I personally would do this... but it might be a good time to teach the foal to walk alongside mommy while being led.

[JBandRio]

Well, no question, the only option you should consider is a filly. There is zero zero zero point in getting a colt to stand if you don't have oodles of $$ to get him advertised, trained, shown, and inspected. There are WAY too many nice approved WB stallions out there for anyone to be standing one otherwise. To have a stallion for the 1, maybe 2 times breeding your own/friends/neighbor's mare once every few years is very unfair to the stallion. And, you still have to adhere to all the rules and regulations of legal stallion housing, your liability goes way up, etc. That scenario is totally not worth it.

If you really want a WB filly, then it really would be in your best interest to spend as much $$ as you can on as high a quality filly as you can with proven bloodlines, and plan to get her inspected and approved as a 3yo. That way, should she ever become unrideable, you still have a very decent market for her and her baby(s).

As for breaking her after getting her in foal, unless you have done substantial groundwork, including long-lining/ground driving, or she's just really really mellow, I would wait 60 days before starting down that path. Lots of WB breeders do this, and get her lightly going at least w/t before she foals, often light w/t/c.

I have no problem putting a 3yo in foal IF she is already showing good temperament and looks pretty mature. I fully realize she is not physically mature, but I'm talking about the 3yo who looks like an adult horse vs the 3yo who still looks like various horses put together.

How soon after foaling you could start riding her again totally depends on her and the foal. If she was quiet to start before, and her foal is fairly independent, then within a month or two you could be getting on for short rides in the field with the foal. But if you have a clingy foal, the last thing you need is the foal screaming around and on top of his mother while you are trying to work with her.

[guess who]

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Well, no question, the only option you should consider is a filly. There is zero zero zero point in getting a colt to stand if you don't have oodles of $$ to get him advertised, trained, shown, and inspected. There are WAY too many nice approved WB stallions out there for anyone to be standing one otherwise. To have a stallion for the 1, maybe 2 times breeding your own/friends/neighbor's mare once every few years is very unfair to the stallion. And, you still have to adhere to all the rules and regulations of legal stallion housing, your liability goes way up, etc. That scenario is totally not worth it.

See, if I got a colt the plan would be to breed it to TB mares probably. You can register TB mares with the warmblood studbook here if they are inspected and approved, so the foals would be registered warmbloods, as well as sport horses provided they passed the conformation specifics for the sport horse studbook. The thing with the colts is there's no break in the training, and I love the presence stallions have. But I think you're right, I do know really that I should be looking only at fillys, I just have a thing for the colts typical me.
What do you reckon if the WB filly bred me a colt? keep it, geld it (to make a nice competition horse), or sell it?

Originally Posted by JBandRio

If you really want a WB filly, then it really would be in your best interest to spend as much $$ as you can on as high a quality filly as you can with proven bloodlines, and plan to get her inspected and approved as a 3yo. That way, should she ever become unrideable, you still have a very decent market for her and her baby(s).

yeah, this is one of my major thinkings behind a filly, its just because warmbloods are very very marketable, and obviously a gelding would be useless should he develop problems. One thing, and this may be a silly question. The filly would be registered under a stud name and everything, and would be a registered warmblood with the studbook. I'm assuming this doesn't automatically make her approved? She'd have to pass a sort of licencing test right?

Originally Posted by JBandRio

As for breaking her after getting her in foal, unless you have done substantial groundwork, including long-lining/ground driving, or she's just really really mellow, I would wait 60 days before starting down that path. Lots of WB breeders do this, and get her lightly going at least w/t before she foals, often light w/t/c.

ok, fair enough. That sounds like a good enough plan to me. And if I were to break her and back her and put her in foal later? I assume it would still be best to wait the 60 days after putting her in foal before resuming work? I guess I could viably break a filly at 2 and a half, i know many trainers do, but I feel it may be too young.

Originally Posted by JBandRio

I have no problem putting a 3yo in foal IF she is already showing good temperament and looks pretty mature. I fully realize she is not physically mature, but I'm talking about the 3yo who looks like an adult horse vs the 3yo who still looks like various horses put together.

How soon after foaling you could start riding her again totally depends on her and the foal. If she was quiet to start before, and her foal is fairly independent, then within a month or two you could be getting on for short rides in the field with the foal. But if you have a clingy foal, the last thing you need is the foal screaming around and on top of his mother while you are trying to work with her.

yes, this sounds like a rather undesirable scenario. The worst I'd do then is being able to ride her after weaning?

thanks for your help guys..keep it coming

[Shannon]

Originally Posted by guess who

See, if I got a colt the plan would be to breed it to TB mares probably. You can register TB mares with the warmblood studbook here if they are inspected and approved, so the foals would be registered warmbloods, as well as sport horses provided they passed the conformation specifics for the sport horse studbook.

Where is "here?" Warmblood registries' rules apply no matter where you are But here's the problem with that scenario: YES TB mares can be inspected and approved (actually with the NAWPN and SWANA they don't even need to see them, just want copies of JC papers) but the STALLION needs to be an approved stallion. That doesn't mean just registered, that means the full 9 yards-- a fully approved, licensed stallion. Trust me, sending your stud off to a 100 day test is NOT cheap!! A foal out of a TB mare and by an unapproved, unknown WB stud would have virtually NO market. Plus, this type of breeding is exactly what WB registries try to discourage with the whole approval process.

What do you reckon if the WB filly bred me a colt? keep it, geld it (to make a nice competition horse), or sell it?

Well that depends entirely on the quality of the colt!

[Appylvr]

I just have to add that just because a mare becomes pregnant doesn't mean she has to sit in her stall for 11 months. She can be worked up until I'd say the last month or two. Of course once she was that far along you'd just be doing light riding... It's really better on the mare to keep her going during pregnancy though...

So like you said with the colts "there's no break in the training" meaning they're more desirable... it doesn't have to be true for a mare except for just a few months.

[JBandRio]

Originally Posted by guess who

See, if I got a colt the plan would be to breed it to TB mares probably. You can register TB mares with the warmblood studbook here if they are inspected and approved, so the foals would be registered warmbloods, as well as sport horses provided they passed the conformation specifics for the sport horse studbook. The thing with the colts is there's no break in the training, and I love the presence stallions have. But I think you're right, I do know really that I should be looking only at fillys, I just have a thing for the colts typical me.

You missed the REALLY critical piece of information I gave about getting a colt and using him for breeding - your immense monetary outlay to get and keep him professionally trained and shown, the $10k+ it takes to put them through stallion testing, and to maintain his breeding status. Because there are SO many nice approved WB stallions out there in all areas, you would have a very very small mare base who would want to use you, and then they'd be looking to you if you were cheap enough.

What do you reckon if the WB filly bred me a colt? keep it, geld it (to make a nice competition horse), or sell it?

See above - doesn't matter if you're buying a colt or your mare produces one - it's all the same. The difference is if the colt is deemed a stallion prospect *by the inspectors as his registration*, then you could market him as a stallion prospect and see if you get any buyers. If not, geld him.

The filly would be registered under a stud name and everything, and would be a registered warmblood with the studbook. I'm assuming this doesn't automatically make her approved? She'd have to pass a sort of licencing test right?

Yes - registration does not = breeding approval. It's unadvisable to present her for approval before age 3, and sometimes it's better to present her as a 4yo or even older - depends on how she's maturing and what sort of condition she's in. For *some* mares who might otherwise be questionable for approval, if she's produced a foal who is an obvious improvement on her, that can be the deciding factor in getting her into a lower book to start with, and then she can move up the books (as applicable) as she produces more and more premium quality foals. No guarantees though - much depends on your choices of stallions. A mare approval is nowhere near as cost and time prohibitive as a stallion approval, but it helps IMMENSELY if the mare is going well under saddle.

And if I were to break her and back her and put her in foal later? I assume it would still be best to wait the 60 days after putting her in foal before resuming work?

Age of breeding has no bearing on how long you should wait before starting down a *new* path. The difficulty in getting her confirmed in foal is a big factor. If she is well-broke before you breed her, then you could start riding her shortly after breeding, just not introducing anything new.

I guess I could viably break a filly at 2 and a half, i know many trainers do, but I feel it may be too young.

What purpose would that serve? Not much.

[guess who]

Originally Posted by Shannon

Where is "here?" Warmblood registries' rules apply no matter where you are But here's the problem with that scenario: YES TB mares can be inspected and approved (actually with the NAWPN and SWANA they don't even need to see them, just want copies of JC papers) but the STALLION needs to be an approved stallion.

Here being South Africa, where the mares are inspected and can be awarded any status, including premium. If the TB isn't approved then the foal has to be registered as a WB x TB, not a warmblood

Originally Posted by JBandRio

You missed the REALLY critical piece of information I gave about getting a colt and using him for breeding - your immense monetary outlay to get and keep him professionally trained and shown, the $10k+ it takes to put them through stallion testing, and to maintain his breeding status. Because there are SO many nice approved WB stallions out there in all areas, you would have a very very small mare base who would want to use you, and then they'd be looking to you if you were cheap enough.

No, I understand its expensive, and actually I would be doing the training and showing along with my trainer. She works with many riders who are training stallions, and plenty of them have reached grand prix levels with them. I think the stallion testing would be the problem in terms of monetary cost. I think the better option would be to start with the filly, and one day hope I breed a good quality colt, then keep that as a stallion. The one thing here is that there aren't THAT many approved wb stallions, at least in comparison to other countries, or thats what I've found at any rate.

Originally Posted by JBandRio

Yes - registration does not = breeding approval. It's unadvisable to present her for approval before age 3, and sometimes it's better to present her as a 4yo or even older - depends on how she's maturing and what sort of condition she's in.

ok, thats basically what I needed to know..I know there are PLENTY of studs here, even the well regarded ones that breed without approved mares , but i'd really like to have mine approved, and probably shown. Having said that, if I were breeding to start with for my own horses then I suppose it wouldn't be needed, just recommended.