[Appy-Girl]

Originally Posted by shenanigans

I would agree with Saddleup here, if pain is not the issue & has been ruled out. Start ground work back at square 1, possibly her balance is an issue.
If she isn't doing a good walk to trot transition she isn't going to do a trot to canter transition either, not correctly anyway.

Does she know her leads? Some days she is better then others with her leads. I honestly believe she was "rushed" to be sold - and then everything I was told about her and that is where we began building from wasn't the entire truth. Is she better to lunge on one side then the other? She is better to handle and smoother going to her right - her left she gets a little high strung and fresh.
If she can't or won't learn a natural head carriage then she won't be able to engage her hindend correctly either so she will always be heavy on her forehand & unbalanced both physically & mentally. The only way to set her head is with the martingale or a tie-down. When I try the mannual method the instructor said to do - she is a nightmare - and we are all over the place.

I hope that helps some, hard to help when you don't have a good picture in your head.
Can you get a video of her while being ridden?

Thanks and I will work on it.

[MissHopesMom]

My mare has been at the trainers for her first 30 days, and I was up several times to watch her being worked.

The first thing I noticed was that the trainer tied Hope's reins to the saddle when she lunged her ( she's got a very high head set and holds her head high naturally ) with enough pressure that she would lengthen and stretch downward. She started this with Hope from the beginning, and everyone has seen a huge difference in her carriage at this point ( 30 days later ).

At 30 days, a slight jiggle of the reins has her lowering and elongating beautifully, despite her natural inclination to hollow her back and move with her head in the air.

I've also tried longing our arabian mare this way ( same problem - holds her head up and hollows her back ) and have had relative success so far ( I've longed her once ). After about 10 minutes she started lowering and stretching out.

[Pally]

I know it's hard, because you feel frustrated and even betrayed by her previous training (or lack of), but you need to absolutely let that go. What "broke" or "30 days" means is different for every trainer (or "trainer" if you know what I mean). What 30 days gets you should be different for every horse. But whatever the case, that is what happened in the past. You can not change anything about the past. So you really need to drop the negative feelings about all that, and focus on what you can do with her now....how you will progress her training from this point she's at now, not where you think she should be. Pretend she's a horse you bought "blind" at an auction sale, that you had no idea what had been done with her. In those cases, good trainings is a bonus, bad training or lack of training is just a project for you.

Start from the very beginning. And I mean very beginning...as in "halter breaking". Obviously she's halter broke, but does she do it well, or just do it? Does she walk beside you (not in front or behind) but out of your space, turning when you turn and stopping when you stop? If no, and she pushes into you, rushes, lags behind, etc, etc then that is a sign of lack of respect, and that needs to be rectified long before the loping under saddle does.

Basically you have a lot of groundwork to do. There are lots of threads here on various topics about gaining respect on the ground. There are lots of books out there. Do A LOT of groundwork. She needs to say "yes m'am" to anything you tell her on the ground, because if she won't do it there, she isn't going to do it under saddle.

And when you are working under saddle, again, you need to go back to the basics of basics, as if she were being started from scratch. Some things she might be like "duh I know how to do this already" but that's fine...you move on from those quickly, but it's how you find out where the holes are.


Also, I can not say strongly enough, that you need to forget about her headset, and trying to set her head. For one thing, just focusing on the head can be detrimental to any training, as it's the whole body that needs to "set", not the head. But she's plain and simple not at the point wehre she can happily learn it. She needs to get respectful and relaxed first. Tying a horse's head in place (whether on the lunge or under saddle) when they want to fight it can lead to explosive behaviour, and since she's already prone to it, I would not want to add this fuel to the fire!


I know it will be tough to go back and take it slow and go back to basics when you are surrounded by people with "helpful advice" or who try to pressure you. But it's better for you and your horse in the long run, so you have to find your way to deflect it.


And last but not least, a vet check to rule out pain is probably warranted.

[Alliekk]

I agree with the head-set explanation. You should be working on what she can do like leg yielding, lateral work, lots of give and take of the reins. She will be MUCH softer in the mouth if you don't try to tie it down. I would, however, get a couple of loose bungie cords and tie them to the D-ring on her girth, up through her front legs and onto her halter, not her bit. The bungies are forgiving enough to help prevent explosive behavior, but still encourage a dropped head. Natural body carriage can't be achieved very well when the horse is able to flail around her head and neck like a buffoon on the lunge line, so maybe with the bungies she will be ''forced'' and I use this term lightly, to put her head down and set her mind to ''work mode.'' Only do this on the lunge line. You don't wasn't her to feel trapped while you're riding, she could possibly flip herself backwards.

[ponypony]

Originally Posted by Appy-Girl

she wants to learn - she tries but it is almost like teaching a kindergardner 5th grade work..........

I think you know what the problem MIGHT be. She has missing steps in her training, getting confused, and probably refusing to work because of it.

[Rosie12]

I would slow down on the work and start with simple things. I know it can be fustrating (I've been working with a 4 yo myself so I know a little of what you're going through ) start with lunging. Work with her to get her to the point where she will do each and every step nicely - walk and stop when you tell her to, trot when you tell her to and canter when you tell her to. One thing to try when she kicks out at the canter is to completely ignore it and continue to give her cues. Work with her until each step is done willingly and submissivly.

Then continue to doing work with the saddles and bridles. Again, start slow. Same thing. Wait and work with her until each step is completed without any scare/agressive reaction and she's working with you willingly.

(This is all IMO) One thing that may have happened during her training is that she was forced and wasn't allowed to do it willingly...there's a difference between doing it because they 'have to' and doing it because you asked them to. It's often the ones that 'have to' that need to be worked with more.

IMO, she's probably also being a kid and pushing the limits. "Well, can I get away with this? What about this? I've never done this before, let me try it and see what happens..." Anyway, I agree with Pally; this is your horse now. Even if her foundation is rubbish, you simply have to find a way to rebuild on what's been done. (Rohan can neck reign and take a saddle and bit very willingly and nicely, but is weary of his feet being picked and getting a bath...someone left some holes in his work as well...)

Anyway, good luck. Hope things get better for you!!

[shenanigans]

Originally Posted by Pally

Start from the very beginning. And I mean very beginning...as in "halter breaking". Obviously she's halter broke, but does she do it well, or just do it? Does she walk beside you (not in front or behind) but out of your space, turning when you turn and stopping when you stop? If no, and she pushes into you, rushes, lags behind, etc, etc then that is a sign of lack of respect, and that needs to be rectified long before the loping under saddle does.

Basically you have a lot of groundwork to do. There are lots of threads here on various topics about gaining respect on the ground. There are lots of books out there. Do A LOT of groundwork. She needs to say "yes m'am" to anything you tell her on the ground, because if she won't do it there, she isn't going to do it under saddle.

And when you are working under saddle, again, you need to go back to the basics of basics, as if she were being started from scratch. Some things she might be like "duh I know how to do this already" but that's fine...you move on from those quickly, but it's how you find out where the holes are.


Also, I can not say strongly enough, that you need to forget about her headset, and trying to set her head. For one thing, just focusing on the head can be detrimental to any training, as it's the whole body that needs to "set", not the head. But she's plain and simple not at the point wehre she can happily learn it. She needs to get respectful and relaxed first. Tying a horse's head in place (whether on the lunge or under saddle) when they want to fight it can lead to explosive behaviour, and since she's already prone to it, I would not want to add this fuel to the fire!


I know it will be tough to go back and take it slow and go back to basics when you are surrounded by people with "helpful advice" or who try to pressure you. But it's better for you and your horse in the long run, so you have to find your way to deflect it.


And last but not least, a vet check to rule out pain is probably warranted.

This is my train of thought exactly, obviously she is not balanced & at this time focusing on transitions, head set etc is too far ahead for her. It seems from what you are describing she has as Pally stated a horse that has many holes in her training.
You need to start as she said at the start, learn where the gaps are in her training & fill them in appropriately.

I also strongly agree that if she is unable to do something on the ground, lunge line etc there is no way she will be effective in doing it under saddle.

If she lunges better on the right or left work on the weker side, but balance is BOTH sides.

I think Pally offered some great advice & I agree 100%, step 1 at the begining.
And just to further the point she is not ready for concerns regarding her headset, her transitions are not there so in my opinion her balance is not there either. Tying down or rigging a haed set is a disaster waiting to happen for a horse that has so many holes in her training background.

Its also important to remember that she is young & sounds like she has a baby mind still, so expect her to respect you 1st & foremost, do not overwhelm her mind all at once, go slowly you have time to make her better then she is right now.

Just curious what breed/breeds is she? This may or may not account for some of her own frustration with being asked to do something she isn't ready to understand yet.

Keep us updated & hope you can get that vidoe up, I hear you about the arena being too dark & the weather.

[Appy-Girl]

Saddle Pictures - working on getting more with me on her and video.



Here is the album link - i don't know how to post pictures - sorry................


http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...valuation.html

[Alliekk]

No, that saddle does not fit her, I'm sorry to tell you. It is too narrow. She's a broad shouldered girl, and even just looking at that first picture and none on the link I can tellyou now that she is in pain and that the saddle does not fit.

[shenanigans]

I'm sorry to say & I'm so not trying to be rude, but that is a ghastly saddle. It is ill fitting & cheaply made....

But I stand behind what has been said regarding her training too.