I have an older 16" Stubben, made in Germany-- this is the GOOD kind of Stubben back when they were built to last. It "had" suede knee rolls (suede has been worn smooth), tree is sound, it has some oil spots etc.. Not beautiful but functional and comfortable... NOT a show worthy saddle in my opinion. $250 plus shipping, includes safety stirrups and leathers (leathers are worn.) I have pics that I can email.