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Author
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Topic: headset/collection problems
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Abbie22057
Member
Member # 1137
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posted May 13, 2004 08:11 AM
My mare Cherish (who I am trying to train to show huntseat in 4-H) goes around all the time with her nose stuck way out. Kind of like crazi4horses' Honey was in the most recent pictures. She has a high head and I know she doensn't have her hind end underneath her at all. Also, we're trying to slow her canter and trot down (the leader said she's like a racehorse or endurance horse) but I just can't get her to slow the canter. She won't collect and "keep her legs underneath her and go up and down" She's always all strung out.
Also, as far as headset, she doesn't give to the bit very well. She goes to either side easily but when I put my hands way low and jiggle the bit she just stiffens up. I think that is a result of my heavy hands when I first started riding English, I thought you had to pull really hard all the time. I have sinced learned differently, but how can I fix this?
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Cherish--24 yr Arabian mare
Abbie-- 2 yr Appaloosa filly
Shelby-- 3 yr Boxer female
Shannon--3 yr Shorthorn heifer
Martin-yearling ChiMaine steer
Posts: 371 | From: GR, Michigan | Registered: Dec 2003
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littlecelticpony
Member
Member # 1480
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posted May 13, 2004 08:39 AM
LEG LEG LEG! you said she gets strung out at the canter - are you just using your hands to collect her? won't work! gotta ride her to the bit, not the other way around. back to front.
lol
don't jiggle the bit, keep your hands STEADY. jiggling the bit will just annoy her.
[ May 13, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: littlecelticpony ]
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Posts: 1225 | Registered: Jan 2004
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belle4
Member
Member # 864
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posted May 13, 2004 10:19 AM
Lots of transitions also. When you canter for 5 miles, the horse just thinks he is doing the right thing by going fast. If you constantly break it up and do lots of transitions, it will keep him thinking.
Posts: 1075 | From: michigan | Registered: Oct 2003
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spyro1
Member
Member # 647
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posted May 13, 2004 11:55 AM
Lots of transitions, like belle said. You can also put her in smaller circles. She will have to carry herself, in smaller circles. Figure eights are great as well, with simple change in the middle. Keeps her thinking. Also, lots of stopping when she speeds up. Canter for 4 or 5 strides, stop her, turn her and canter off in opposite direction. Canter for 4 or 5 strides, stop her, reverse direction.
As for her dropping her head, work on lateral flexion, getting her to drop at the withers, and bend. take your rein, bring it way out, bump bump until she gives at the wither, you need to be on top of watching for the slightest drop though, once she does, reward her by patting her ,and letting her walk forward, then do the same thing on the other rein. As for lowering your hands and jiggling, try bumping her up with your hands, slightest give, stop and praise her. Repetition is the key to slowing a horse and acheiving headset:)
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Posts: 2755 | From: Sunny South Florida | Registered: Aug 2003
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slc
Member
Member # 1713
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posted May 13, 2004 04:12 PM
My mare Cherish (who I am trying to train to show huntseat in 4-H) goes around all the time with her nose stuck way out.
--Are they wanting a horse to really go with its head tucked in for 4h hunt seat, or just not quite so nose-out-der and stiff.
--My thought on it is, and I haven't done any 4h judging so I don't really know, but from the few times I have gone, I have this idea that what they want is not so much that the horse's head is way in or way out, but in kind of a medium or middle position, so his neck and chin aren't pulled in, but aren't stiff and poked out either. So he looks comfortable and supple, but not with his neck pulled in or his chin on his chest. I think they want them to reach their neck out forward like a hunter or intro or training level dressage horse, and show a little looseness and suppleness in the jaw and poll. I don't think they want their head on the vertical, or behind it, but a little in front of the vertical.
--I also think they want their hind legs to reach forward under their body, but not in an exaggerated way, they just want to see those hind legs reaching forward.
Kind of like crazi4horses' Honey was in the most recent pictures.
--I'll see if I can go find them.
She has a high head and I know she doensn't have her hind end underneath her at all.
--Do you think her back is hollowed out or dropped down under neath you? They do that sometimes when their head is up and their hind legs out behind, the back seems to feel under you almost like the horse is suddenly sway backed, like the back has dropped down. It is almost like when you take a willow branch and push the tip sideways against a wall, and the whole branch gets bent down in a curve.
Also, we're trying to slow her canter and trot down (the leader said she's like a racehorse or endurance horse) but I just can't get her to slow the canter.
--What kind of things have you tried to get her to slow down her canter?
--There are a lot of things that can make a horse go fast. One is that he is just a peppy horse. Two is that he is nervous. Three is that he is off balance, and is kind of running to catch himself from falling.
--Four is that without meaning to the rider is saying to go faster. The rider might be pulling the reins or hanging on tight with his legs.
--Five is that he is taking short small steps that feel really quick. If he is leaning to one side or the other and taking short small steps it can really feel out of control.
--Six is that he was just trained to go a lot faster than the rider who has him now wants to go, and now it is a habit.
She won't collect and "keep her legs underneath her and go up and down" She's always all strung out.
--By go up and down what do you mean? I think they want the hunter horses in 4h to go with a long, smooth, reaching stride, but with their hind legs under them, not stretched out behind. By go up and down maybe you mean how the canter should feel like a series of soft bounds, smooth yet like a rocking chair.
Also, as far as headset, she doesn't give to the bit very well.
--She may just not understand what is wanted. What kind of bit is she going in.
She goes to either side easily but when I put my hands way low and jiggle the bit she just stiffens up.
--Yes that doesn't work on some horses, and we can't do that in dressage, LOL. So since I am in dressage I do know other ways to get the horse to relax his jaw and poll, loosen up his neck, and balance himself better.
I think that is a result of my heavy hands when I first started riding English, I thought you had to pull really hard all the time. I have sinced learned differently, but how can I fix this?
--Do yu think that the horse doing all these things started when you were first learning English, and were pulling at the reins? It could be. If so that is really kind of good news because it could be an easier thing to fix than if the horse is just permanently bonkers and was born that way, LOL.
--First of all, the first step of course is to find out what is making the horse go fast. Try some different things, like experiments, to see if they help.
See if sitting up straighter slows the horse down. See if concentrating really hard on keeping your heels down and out of her sides slows her down. See if riding in a circle slows her down. Try things at the trot, then at the canter. Play around with it and experiment. See if trying to keep the reins really soft and loose slows her down.
To do that, think of your hands as ''giving hands''. They never ''take'' back from where they sit, they just give.
You find a spot for your hands to be, not very low (it makes horses get bracey) and not very high (it makes horses put their head up) but at a normal height, just a little in front of the saddle, not pressing down or up. Then adjust the rein length so you have a very soft feel of the horse's mouth. Not hard, and not so loose that you can't feel the mouth. Just put the rein length so you have a feel and don't worry for now about anything, even if she pokes her head out or does all kinds of stupid things with her head. Don't fight with her about it just for now. Just take the contact where she gives it.
Now your hands aren't going to go any further back than that, draw a line on the saddle and your hand and don't cross that line with your hands if you have to do that to make it clear that yur hand can't go back any further.
If you feel too much slack in the reins and can't feel of her mouth, take up the slack, if the feel is too hard, make the reins a little longer. Just take whatever she gives for now and post the trot on a circle. Just go one way on a big circle, no abrupt stops or changes of direction. Just get on the circle.
Now just squeeze the reins in your fingers, like squeezing a sponge. Sit down in the saddle, stop posting, sit up straight take your heels really really obviously out of her sides, and say whoaaaa.......and just keep working your fingers and sitting still til she stops and walks. Take your time but don't stop trying. The second she slows down pat her. Keep working at it, try to get her to walk. DON'T try to get her to drop the bit or drop the contact on the bit. Keep working on her til she walks. Then pat her and say good girl. Walk a couple steps and trot again. Now the next time, don't go bonkers, but try to get her to stop just 1-2 steps sooner, don't get too eager trying to make it happen too fast.
Just practice on it. Walk and trot. On the big circle. Just the same circle. Just post, and stop posting when you want to stop and walk, sit down, heels out of her, working the reins, and say whoa. You won't have to say whoa later, this is just a baby stage.
So just play with that and act like you are a scientist discovering a new type of species, don't get impatient or mad or worry about anything. Just play with it. Just keep doing it in a calm way like an experiment or a game.
Now just every time she slows down you pat her and say good girl, then after a few calm walk steps pick up the trot again and just keep doing that.
Yeah I know the problem is the canter just don't worry about that for a little while.
Now the next one is some circles, you are going to stay on the big circle, and work on making it round. Instead of trying to set the head we are going to just get her to loosen up her jaw, neck and poll a little bit. Take the same very nice soft light feel of her mouth and don't worry about what she is doing with her head as long as it is steady. That's all we care about, that she lets you have that very soft feel of her mouth, and if she moves her head follow it. Don't act like you feel like you need to do anything with her head right now. Just get her to have that soft light contact. If she won't contact the bit just take yiour time and try to gradually over time just with a little leg, get her to stretch her neck out more to reach for it.
DOn't try to get her to drop the bit or to set her head. See that's the whole trick, when you stop trying to do that you always win. Plus the horse wins and so it is the best thing.
What happens is you just have her make a contact with the bit, it is not a hard contact. It is a light one. The secret is it is a steady contact.
So back to the circle exercise. stay on the big circle and just concentrate on your rhythm being very even and steady. Take your inside hand a little away from her neck and hold your inside leg on her so she doesn't go to the inside, and just take your hand and open it a bit and work your fingers like a sponge. now i don't mean waggling her head from side to side, i mean just close your hand on the rein. don't try to move her head from side to side. just make her circle, so yuo can see the shine of the inside eye, don't bend her head and neck alot.
Do that one and do the other one where you walk and trot. Just do that for a couple weeks. Every day for a short while, and just get her to walk, say good girl and pat her, and trot again.
Then when you go to canter, if you did those two right you will be surprised, but if you are cantering, it should go a lot better just by doing those two things.
What you are going to do then when you canter is just like what you taught her when you were going from trot to walk, that when you sit down in to the saddle, sit straight up with your body and close your hands on the reins she is going to canter slower.
You just teach it at the trot and walk because it is easier to teach at those gaits. And the horse understands and gets it clearer.
Then what you do is work on the canter the same way. You just canter on the big circle, close your hand, sit down, say whoa, and the horse will trot and then walk. And you just pat on her and pat on her and say good girl every time she does it, even if it takes a while or more steps than you want, don't worry about that when you are working on it, as soon as she does it say good girl and pat her on the neck. After a while she will do it easier and sooner, if you are asking right. THe bending exercise will help her carry her head well just because her jaw and neck will be more supple and loose, and the trot walk and then later the canter trot walk exercise will teach her to slow down. Have an instructor help you to make sure you are getting all the points just right and have some fun.
[ May 13, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: slc ]
Posts: 297 | From: ohio | Registered: Feb 2004
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Abbie22057
Member
Member # 1137
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posted May 14, 2004 05:41 PM
Thank-you so much...all of you. That's exactly what I needed, slc, a "training plan" of sorts. I will certainly try all the suggestions and see what we can do.
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Cherish--24 yr Arabian mare
Abbie-- 2 yr Appaloosa filly
Shelby-- 3 yr Boxer female
Shannon--3 yr Shorthorn heifer
Martin-yearling ChiMaine steer
Posts: 371 | From: GR, Michigan | Registered: Dec 2003
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