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Author
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Topic: On the Bit
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regrulez
Junior Member
Member # 121
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posted May 10, 2004 01:17 AM
I have a TB gelding who has a very sensitive mouth. This makes it very hard 2 get him on the bit as he sticks his head up when any pressure is placed on his mouth. Can any1 help me with this.
Thanks. ![[Help!]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posts: 9 | From: Australia | Registered: Mar 2003
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etolar
Member
Member # 2033
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posted May 10, 2004 07:18 AM
My TB gelding is similar. Luckily someone trained him well before I got him. Still, he's very sensitive and responds to pressure by matching it with his own. From the ground, he'll look on the bit, but he's actually faking a frame and leaning on the bit. Totally fooled us with side reins. He'll look great and you get on and discover he's leaning hard.
It takes a quick release (keep giving even if he feels pretty good, he'll get better) and good leg reinforcement to keep him on the bit for more than a few strides.
Longing him in draw reins helped a lot. He had control of the contact that way. He went around the circle the first few times with his head up and looking worried, but TB's are smart and he finally figured out that if he drops his head, the pressure backs off. Maybe that would help. Draw reins give instantly when the horse gives without totally dropping the contact. If he has to figure it out on his own and isn't stressing about a rider, maybe he'll relax about it.
Just my 2 cents. Keep us posted.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--erika
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No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. -- Winston Churchill
It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinions that makes horse races. -- Mark Twain
Posts: 68 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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regrulez
Junior Member
Member # 121
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posted May 11, 2004 01:10 AM
Thanx I'll give it a go
Posts: 9 | From: Australia | Registered: Mar 2003
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MissBandit
Member
Member # 1377
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posted May 11, 2004 09:57 AM
I'm sure you mean to say "Side Reins".
Draw reins are NOT meant to be lunged in.
These are Draw Reins
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You know you are a horse person when...
...You pull change from your pocket , and hay falls out.
...you yell at the kids, and the horse's name pops out.
...you actually get to a point where flies don't bother you so much.
Posts: 2292 | From: BC, Canada | Registered: Jan 2004
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etolar
Member
Member # 2033
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posted May 11, 2004 10:52 AM
Actually no, I did mean draw reins. We have two different kinds in our barn. The ones you showed, yes, are for riding, but also have a set which goes from the girth (b/w the horse's legs) to the bit and back to the surcingle (or around the billets of the saddle).
The result is similar to side reins, but instead of the contact totally dropping when the horse gives his head, it is more gradual.
Michael Poulin made a big deal about them at his clinic here last Fall. He dislikes using side reins on horse's that don't already understand the contact b/c it can actually teach some horses to resist the contact (b/c of the constant dropping of the contact). He actually found twine to rig draw reins to longe a horse b/c he refused to use their side reins.
I'll try to find a picture or article....
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No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. -- Winston Churchill
It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinions that makes horse races. -- Mark Twain
Posts: 68 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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etolar
Member
Member # 2033
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posted May 11, 2004 11:02 AM
Or maybe I won't find a picture...
Maybe it's just a trend of trainers I've seen to use draw reins on the longe. I'd definitely find someone familiar with longing to help you.
If I come across an article explaining the concern with side reins, I'll post it. I think in most cases it's probably not an issue. Longing in draw reins is really an alternative for horses that don't respond well with side reins.
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No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. -- Winston Churchill
It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinions that makes horse races. -- Mark Twain
Posts: 68 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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slc
Member
Member # 1713
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posted May 11, 2004 05:57 PM
I think the best idea with this problem is to get help from a riding instructor, and a dressage instructor maybe can help you because we do want our horses to take a contact with the bit and dressage trainers get a WHOLE lot of experience fixing that problem, because alot of people have problems with it.
I do not think it is a good idea to longe a horse or ride a horse in draw reins. Mike Poulin is an expert who has many, many decades of training horses under his belt, he has trained horses and ridden them in the Olympics. He has trained some of the most difficult horses to do well. I admire him immensely. He is a great man.
He knows how to use just about any piece of equipment. But without him there to help every day, I don't think it is a good idea.
Draw reins are one thing that can go very, very, very wrong. They are not easy to use, even when longeing. They are also dangerous, as a horse can get his feet in them and he has to break two sides to get out of them quickly if he goes down. They are such a problem that around a lot of places, if the trainer suggests using them, the students will say, ''no!'' and go get another instructor.
Of course someone like Mike won't have problems with them and it is ok for him to go to a clinic and try to rig some up. He is trying to get through a specific problem and he will work it out. But that doesn't make it right for everyone to do the same thing routinely (that's a problem with clinics that crops up a lot).
Alot of times the horses wind up even worse after the rider tries to use draw reins to correct a problem. The draw reins often cause the horse to adopt a ''false carriage'' or a ''frame'' or ''headset'' which causes us problems in dressage. Big problems. The horse will start to drop his poll (the bump on his head between his ears). It should for most of the time be the highest point of his neck and head, but what happens with the draw reins is they put that point too low and ''break the neck'' further back.
You see, as I will try to explain, the same thing goes wrong when the draw reins are on as goes wrong with them off - the horse has not got enough impulsion to steady his head or put him on a contact, and that's what makes the draw reins go wrong too. In other words a piece of equipment won't solve all problems. You have to get at the real problem and fix that. That's the thing.
I don't longe horses in draw reins, and I avoid draw reins and side reins on a horse that does not want to reach for the bit and make a contact. I think it is easier and safer if most people pretty much do the same, and correct the contact problems under saddle, without any extra gear.
Sometimes I use side reins, set fairly long, to try and give the horse the idea to reach for the contact, but it is hard to do that, and it takes a lot of experience with longeing to make that work. It is not easy. I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is trying to do this on their own for the first time and has found a horse that has a lot of challenges.
I think if your horse does not want to make contact with the bit, the best thing to do is to get a riding instructor who can be right there and help you.
Usually, the problem is not solved by a bit, a rein, or a type of tricky technique. Usually it is just plain old good riding and regular training, just the same simple exercises that develop every horse, and the rider working on the same things all riders have to work on.
If a horse is moving his head around, in the dressage, we don't fix that by trying to hold the horse's head still with a martingale. We aren't allowed to show with a martingale, so we have to fix it just with our riding, in any case the dressage idea is pretty much always 'fix it with how you ride', because basically, we aren't allowed to show with anything other than a plain snaffle bit and a regular saddle. The reason they made the show rules like that is that they want us to train our horses that way too, and have that kind of idea in mind all the time.
Believe it or not, you can fix anything pretty much, just by learning some new riding skills, and by really polishing and making even better the riding skills you have. Amazing but true. There is always that challenging horse that comes along, they are there for a purpose, to teach us to ride better. What we know isn't good enough for them, we have to become even better, that's what those tougher horses do for us.
I remember years ago when Mr Poulin was here for a clinic, a rider came out with a horse that constantly tossed his head and seemed to not want to stay in a steady contact with the bit. He was even biting his chest, and once or twice he threw his head so hard, he hit the rider in the face, and my friend sitting next to me said, ''I think the guy's nose is bleeding!'' That is how hard the horse tossed his head. It was really bad.
The guy sat there and all he was trying to do was just canter quietly around and the horse was acting like, well like a nut case. It was getting worse with every minute.
So Mike got on the horse. The horse was doing the same thing, just looking awful...for...about...thirty...seconds. Then all of a sudden, the horse just let out a big sigh, and started to quietly just mouth the bit and let his jaw be springy and relaxed and take the contact. The contact, all of a sudden, was perfect. Not stuck behind the bit in a fake pose, and not pulling, and steady, and just fine.
Mike cantered around and the horse stopped doing everything. It was really incredible. He just cantered along, seeming to do nothing at all different from the other guy.
And then he gave the horse back, and in 30 seconds the horse was doing all that stuff again.
I was with a trainer and I asked her what the difference was.
''Mike uses his legs''.
Yes, Mike got that horse to steady up just by using a little more leg aids, nothing really noticeable, it was a small adjustment. Often when a horse is moving his head, all he needs is a more steady hand and more leg aids. It's very hard to believe, but it's true. FOr many many years after that, every single time I went to a clinic or a lesson I would hear the same thing from my own coach and many others over the years, said to literally thousands of people. Horse is moving his head? More leg.
But with a horse that gets rushy and needs training, it's hard to make that change and have it come out right. A trainer will be of help to you and help you get it all worked out.
Posts: 297 | From: ohio | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moonshine Zeus
Member
Member # 1660
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posted May 11, 2004 07:12 PM
i wouldnt recommend side reins for a horse you should do lots of work with him and getting him to accept the aids if you do use them only use them for a short period
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PROUD OWNER OF MOONSHINE ZEUS 14.2 22 YR OLD PONY WHO DOES EVERYHING.
*jUMPING IS DRESSAGE WITH A COUPLE OF JUMPS IMBEETWEEN*
Posts: 175 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
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space_cowboy
Member
Member # 1308
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posted May 12, 2004 06:30 AM
When you are riding him put your hands to your knees and play with the reins while giving lots of leg (not heal but calf. Sometimes horses need a little extra support!
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Horses are my life, and I couldn't imagine my life without them.......
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Posts: 383 | From: houston | Registered: Jan 2004
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littlecelticpony
Member
Member # 1480
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posted May 12, 2004 08:22 AM
steady hands! and like slc said, LEG LEG LEG.
be sure when you're posting that you open and close your elbows, so your hands stay relatively still (instead of them going up and down with your post). at the walk and canter, allow your arms to follow the motion of his head.
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Posts: 1225 | Registered: Jan 2004
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etolar
Member
Member # 2033
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posted May 14, 2004 10:34 AM
I finally found a picture of what we used.
But yes, I agree with slc and everyone else. Things are better fixed under saddle and I never longe my horse alone -- I just don't have enough experience to do it without making the problem worse. Also, incorrectly adjusted equipment is definitely dangerous.
I rely on my trainer's experience. It's something we do rarely (i.e. when he had a cut and we couldn't use a saddle or when he's feeling fresh and being _very_ resistant).
Anyway, I guess officially they aren't called draw reins, just similar. The pic is at:
http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles/lungeing.htm
It's on the left side about 5 pics down with the caption "Leather Lunge Rein (Vienna Rein)". I haven't read through all the text on that page, so I'm not sure how reliable it is, just wanted to link to the pic. I finally figured out what words to search under when I saw them in Dover's summer sale catalog last night.
--erika
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No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. -- Winston Churchill
It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinions that makes horse races. -- Mark Twain
Posts: 68 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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slc
Member
Member # 1713
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posted May 15, 2004 08:11 AM
What they are calling vienna side reins aren't, actually, I don't think, vienna side reins.
They are basically like draw reins, and I wouldn't use them for longeing or riding. Me, I wouldn't use draw reins, a chambon, a gogue, side reins, draw reins, vienna side reins, german reins, or just about anything else similar to any of them.
Posts: 297 | From: ohio | Registered: Feb 2004
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littlecelticpony
Member
Member # 1480
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posted May 15, 2004 09:04 AM
lol it's funny how that page posted talked about how 'abusive' those devices were lol.
i can't seem to find a pair of "vienna" side reins that aren't just draw reins. so what are TRUE vienna side reins? or is that just a fancy named for "longing draw reins"?
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Xanga...
Pictures...
"I killed your cat! I thought that would bring closure to our relationship!"
"I'll have a Coke, then."
Do not underestimate your horse's pride, or he will dent yours.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Jan 2004
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