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Author
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Topic: Kicking - What do you do?
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Jessi
Member
Member # 637
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posted May 02, 2004 10:57 AM
Just an opinion topic!
When your horse kicks, what do you do??
Mine's known to cow-kick when you're getting into the saddle, because he's afraid you're going to jab your foot into his belly (old owners). When he does this he usually gets a quick knee to the gut, and of course, I don't hit him with my foot when I get on (I turn it sideways, it's much easier to get on too ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ).
He also isn't the greatest when the farrier does his back feet. He kicks at much as he thinks he can get away with. We usually let him get away with up to 3 kicks (just in case it's because his feet are sore). After this, there's no excuse to kick when we're being gentle. He gets a "soccer kick" for every time he kicks. I call it a soccer kick because you have to use the top of your foot and cup him with it.
What does everyone else do? I prefer to kick back because it sends the message clearly. I'm the tough one, I'm in charge, and he needs to remember it.
[ May 02, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Jessi ]
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If this were a logical world, men would ride sidesaddle.
Posts: 182 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Aug 2003
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Blistering Winds
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Member # 843
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posted May 02, 2004 11:38 AM
Instead of the initial kick since this isn't working, grab your lead rope or reins and back him up, spin him around, yelling and screaming at him. make him think you are going ot eat him alive for a few seconds.
Then go back to what you were origionally going to do.
See if that helps.
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Horses should not be treated as people. They should be respected for who they are and what they are capable of doing!
Born Free Now Expensive
Posts: 4337 | From: Texas | Registered: Oct 2003
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Jessi
Member
Member # 637
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posted May 02, 2004 12:48 PM
It works though, this is just to see what other people do. He's still getting used to the idea that I'm not going to dig my toes into him when I get on though. He's not kicking when i get on now, but he turns his head to see what I'm doing, lol.
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If this were a logical world, men would ride sidesaddle.
Posts: 182 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Aug 2003
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MiniHorseGrl
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Member # 2197
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posted May 02, 2004 03:58 PM
my minmi has the habit, when hes full of it, to run ahead of u real fast and buck at you, i usually snap the lead till hes backing and yell, and he doesnt do it as often anymore. with my yearling, on the other hand, he gets whapped with either a driving whip or the end of the lead, and he is an angel while walking now cuz of it, hehe, lots of ppl have lots of techniques, lol
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I Love my Minis!
Posts: 381 | From: Lockport,NY | Registered: Apr 2004
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LadyJumper
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Member # 363
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posted May 02, 2004 06:20 PM
don't let him kick period, get on to him when he first starts to kick. I had to break my horse of the habit when i would pick her feet.
It is better to break the habit now that have it get a whole lot worse.
Posts: 215 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Jul 2003
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kaitlyn
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Member # 402
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posted May 02, 2004 07:44 PM
i usaully hall out and smack em on the rump if they try kickin me when pickin feet or on the shoulder...they kno better so i get em before they can get away with it and then pick their feet back up and hold it for a long time so they kno whos boss...but about the mounting thing..they summed it for me...u could try mabe an uncomfortable pull on the reins...and if u dont mind using crops give a firm tap when he tries to kick...i try to avoid hitting but kickin is dangerous!
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~horses are my heart and soul~~
Feel free to PM me if you need any help!! lots o luv!
Posts: 363 | From: md | Registered: Jul 2003
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CanadianWrangler
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Member # 1843
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posted May 03, 2004 07:55 AM
I generally make them think they are kicking into something.
For kicking while picking feet I will put them in a small pen (only small enough for them to turn around me in the center) and then try to lift thier feet. If they kick I immediately give them a hard slap on the side of the leg above the hock joint (a sensitive area that many horses want to protect/not injure), make them circle me. Then repeat.
I have very few "repeat offenders", and once they lift without kicking I reward them profusely. I keep switching sides so as to keep both feet equal for handling, and only teach this until I can hold thier leg up and move it around freely for about 15 to 20 seconds and then go onto doing something else with them.
For a mounting kicker I use a crop and a lunge line. When they take a swipe at you when mounting I give them one swift snap in the same area I give a slap (refer above), and then make them back up as fast as possible after the 'whack' and then lunge some fast circles. Repeat as necessary but once you get mounted without a kick result leave it at that, praise greatly, and go on with the ride.
If a horses kicking something results in an immediate "shock" to that leg they will associate kicking near a person with a bad consequence. There are lots of various ways to accomplish this. I only use variations on the above techniques.
[ May 03, 2004, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: CanadianWrangler ]
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The More we teach our horses the more we Learn from our horses.
Posts: 119 | From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bella
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Member # 1248
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posted May 03, 2004 08:54 AM
My friends have a horse that was a really bad kicker when he was young. He kicked when anything was near his back end, so they tied him backwards in a standing stall and sat on the boards above him and tickled his bum with a little whip. He kept kicking, but would hurt himself by kicking the wall.. he's never kicked again.
-Bella ![[Running Horse]](graemlins/horse.gif)
Posts: 159 | From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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geraldine
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Member # 1297
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posted May 03, 2004 09:50 AM
hello ,having worked with problem horses for along while now and using natural training i have some suggestions for you .
hitting a horse for showing abnormal behaviour does not solve the problem because he associates pain with the abnormal behaviour which can make the problem worse ,as horses do not understand inflicted pain from us or why it has happened .
if a horse shows abnormal behaviour he has a reason and is trying to say so in the only language he has ,body language .
because the horse has had discomfort whilst mounting he now associates mounting with discomfort ,and tells you he is not having no more of it and tries to protect him self hence the cow kicking . rather than inflict more pain for his behaviour spend time standing by his side with tack on and lean in to him and firmly stroke his sides and the same the other side then ask someone to leg you up and and dismount from both sides then use a mounting block to mount and just slowly gain his trust in a short time he will beleive you and let you mount but it is kinder any way to use a mounting block as this is less pull on his back muscles and your saddle.
if the cow kicking remains instead of kicking him back as soon as he cow kicks tap the same side front leg to cause a little discomfort not pain but only do this if you have tried the kinder way for a while and if he is still resorts to cow kicking .the tapping of the from leg feels uncomfortable at the same time as he cowkicks and will ask him to think about the discomfort each time he kicks you may have to do this only a few times then stand close to him as if getting on but do not mount just stand there and reward him with a good scratch on his withers or a place he likes .
it may not be just the prodding of the riders toe that has caused pain it may also be the pulling of the saddle on his back this put a lot of pressure on the withers and the horse has to brace his muscles to stop him being pulled sideways this can all cause pain and sore muscles .the kindest thing to do for this horse is use a mounting block and let him realise that no pain will be inflicted and to trust you and reward him well with lots of scratches as another horses would to form a freind ship .
he is kicking through worry and protecting himself please dont punish him for that listen to him and help solve the problem ,he does not want to kick you he is just shouting loudly please listen to me it hurts when you do that can we do it some other way hence the mounting block .
the leg tapping is only nessarsary if the kicking hangs on like a old habit and all else has been tried .
it may be his saddle is hurting him also ,so that being ridden and all asociated with it hurts him
hence his kicking to say something is wrong or hurting .
horses do not turn naughty and nasty for no reason its up to us to find out why our horse is unhappy and not for us to get angry as soon as the horse does some thing we dont like .
we can talk eqqus if we learn about the way horses comunicate with each other ,and that can tell us so much as horses communicate with us every day that we own them .
horse body language is very sutle but just like us they can shout if worried about things ,but not in words as we can but in behaviour changes
that we notice ,if there is a problem at first the horse whispers ,if no one listens he then shouts (hence strong body language and behaviour)
i hope this helps as horses can not rationilise like we can we should learn about the langage of the horse and not exspect the horse to learn ours and understand .
best wishes .
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always school your horse with an open mind,every horse is a different person.horse can talk if you learn to speak eqqus.
Posts: 67 | From: berkshire uk | Registered: Jan 2004
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Blistering Winds
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Member # 843
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posted May 03, 2004 10:55 AM
geraldine. I want to bring up your statement of:
quote:
we should learn about the langage of the horse and not exspect the horse to learn ours and understand .
And you disapproving of hitting a horse after a clear and dangerous response to what we are doing.
Hitting them back with a quick POP IS their language. If in a horse herd, a horse who is in lower order kicks at a horse higher in the herd, you BET that horse higher will take that other horse to the ground if they have to. Including Kicking, biting, striking, etc. It is basically, "who's got more Balls than the other" type of scenario.
Yes, things need to be stopped BEFORE it happens, but when it actually happens, a response in THEIR language is in order. A KICK or "pop" as our version of it would be, is in order in my fullest opinion on kickers, biters, etc. Talk back in THEIR language YES, but don't confuse it all either. Kicking IS their language. Especially when a horse isn't expecting it from you. They listen REALLY quick.
The horse who 'gives in' automatically becomes a lower horse in the herd. So if an owner gives into the kicking, based upon not responding to it in a mannor the horse understands, like another kick or making the horse move out of their space REALLY REALLY FAST, the owner will not get the respect that we are looking for in a horse. That horse will start pushing OTHER buttons that will lead to an unruly horse.
Unfortunately, there isn't a "kind" way to do this. A "tap" isn't going to solve anything. It is like having a FLY do our punishment for us. (though on some horses, that just might work). Not welting a horse either, but enough to say HEY. I"M HERE! DON"T DO THAT!!
But everything else I agree with, just not the "tapping but not causing "pain" to the horse" is what really bothered me about what you said. Some "discomfort" is necessary when it comes down to human life and limbs.
[ May 03, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Blistering Winds ]
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Horses should not be treated as people. They should be respected for who they are and what they are capable of doing!
Born Free Now Expensive
Posts: 4337 | From: Texas | Registered: Oct 2003
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sunsetacres
Member
Member # 2363
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posted May 03, 2004 01:00 PM
BW, I definitely agree with you on this one!
There are just some things that are unacceptable. I watch my herd mare with the other mares, if any one of them goes where there not supposed to, or enters "her space", the retrobution is quick, responsive, fitted to the crime and done without remorse, period. Kicking at her illicits her back end with both rear legs kickin! She does not usually hit them, but they get the idea!
One small cow kick to my leg as I am mounting, and my leg could be split wide open! You bet I'm gonna react in kind!
-Charlee
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And on the seventh day God said "thou shalt not trot"...and the good horses listened"
Posts: 47 | From: Michigan | Registered: Apr 2004
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BroncBuster101
Junior Member
Member # 2308
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posted May 03, 2004 01:23 PM
This is what i have done before. Tie a rope around one of their hind feet and tie the other end of the rope in a loop around their neck. Make sure it is good and snug. Then try to make them kick. They can't! Or, they will hurt themselves when they try to lift their leg. Or you can tie one of their front feet to one of their hind feet. If theyb try to lift their leg 2 kick, they will loose balance. This works great as hobbles as well.
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Coach Jesse Rox!
Life Without horses...
I DON"T THINK SO!!!
Posts: 18 | From: Toyahvale,TX | Registered: Apr 2004
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geraldine
Member
Member # 1297
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posted May 03, 2004 06:00 PM
hello and i agree human life comes first as far as
horses are concerned ,but ask your self why the horse is showing this behaviour in the first place ,when normaly it may be a nice mannered horse ,our first reaction as humans feeling threatened is to lash out ,or run .
i feel that to lash out on a horse is not all ways the right way to progress ,some horses do not learn by it and retaliate back,whilst others may never forget and never quite trust again ,i agree if its horse or human then do what you must if the situation is a lethal one ,but reading between the lines of the horse in qn i feel that human error has caused the problem in the first place and the horse is not happy and cowkicks in association of being mounted .
if the horse in qn is hit each time it cow kicks
what does it learn and the problem will not be solved and the behaviour may become worse and still the horse gets hit or punished .
if we sit and think about the horses behaviour and what has caused the problem we can find other ways besides punishment ,of solving the problem .
i am not saying put up with a horse that kicks you in in temper ,but this horse has a reason for his behaviour ,how else can he shout loud enough to be heard he has probably put up with it long enough and his worry of the problem has turned from trying to say nicely with ears back or moving whilst being mounted or pulling faces ,to telling with cow kicking .
i also think you have misunderstood what i was saying about the tapping the front leg but i choose not to go in to that now .
i am sorry if i have up set any one i just think punishing a horse for trying to say some thing is
not my idea of solving a problem ,but if a horse put you in danger then yes protect your self and do what you must do if it means hitting the horse.
we all have our own way of dealing with horses and i would rather ask my self why did my horse do that ,what has caused the problem ,lets see if it was my fault ,or problems from the horses past
has caused this behaviour lets see if i can solve the problem for a happier horse and owner relationship .
i am sorry the ladies horse is cowkicking i hope in time the horse learns to trust and the lady enjoys her horse ,i did not mean to affend anyone .
best wishes.
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always school your horse with an open mind,every horse is a different person.horse can talk if you learn to speak eqqus.
Posts: 67 | From: berkshire uk | Registered: Jan 2004
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Blistering Winds
Member
Member # 843
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posted May 03, 2004 06:11 PM
You didn't offend me geraldine. I just wanted to comment on a few things you said.
I totally agree, find out WHAT is causing the discomfort. But the horse does need to learn another way to "express" himself. Because it can lead to more agressive moves if it continues. No, it isn't natural what we ask them to "express", basically shut up and deal with it so to say on most parts. Mine, he's figured out that if he hurts, he turns and flattens his ears at me. No biting, no kicking, just a quick look and his ears tell me "HEY< THAT HURTS". And I immediately go to look for what aggrivated him and fix the issue.
Or his tail swishing is another way I know he's getting aggrivated. These I will accept from him. But if he lifts that foot, he knows what is coming.
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Horses should not be treated as people. They should be respected for who they are and what they are capable of doing!
Born Free Now Expensive
Posts: 4337 | From: Texas | Registered: Oct 2003
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John
Member
Member # 1854
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posted May 04, 2004 12:42 AM
I like BWs and CWs answers Kicking is something that must be delt with ASAP.Just the sight of the mustard container will make him think twice the next time.
Posts: 109 | From: B.C. Canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bluelightspecial
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Member # 2268
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posted May 04, 2004 12:57 PM
When my horse kicks out at me, I don't waste a second. I kick right back. Or if I can't get to him in time then I'll just pretty much throw a fit. I'll start going off and yelling at him so he's kind of stunned. Plus I am constantly watching his feet when grooming and saddling him. Right when I see him lift his leg up to kick I'll usually push him over so his balance is thrown off or I'll start yelling at him to put it back down. Thats what I do, and it seems to work well with my horse.
Posts: 36 | From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bella
Member
Member # 1248
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posted May 04, 2004 01:10 PM
Bluelightspecial: It is amazing how quickly they respond when you're voice is raised. Just the other night the 2 year old wear I board lifted his leg at the owner. The owner quikly said in a very loud and gruff voice "What are you doing?!" and the colt instantly put his foot back down. He hasn't tried that again. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
-Bella
Posts: 159 | From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Blistering Winds
Member
Member # 843
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posted May 04, 2004 02:42 PM
hehehe. I asked my horse today if he had lost it completely when he freaked out at the door, that HASN"T MOVED OR CHANGED in a YEAR of being there. It didn't open, didn't move. He just looked at it and reared and tried to bolt!
A friend was there when I asked him that. She asked if he ever answers back. Told her that if he did, It was time for me to give up horses.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Funny the things we say, horses figure out what it is. LIke , What are you doing? Have you lost it? etc. It looks like they answer you sometimes.
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Horses should not be treated as people. They should be respected for who they are and what they are capable of doing!
Born Free Now Expensive
Posts: 4337 | From: Texas | Registered: Oct 2003
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CanadianWrangler
Member
Member # 1843
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posted May 10, 2004 09:23 AM
One way to look at a kicking horse is to think of it as a person pointing a loaded gun at you. Both can kill you!!! You don't want a person to point a lethal weapon at you so why let your horse try and "shoot" you!!!
As for the 'reprimanding' your horse with a hard/firm 'whack' (like said previously) it is nearly impossible for a person to hurt a horse by hitting them with your hand. Even Mike Tyson can't punch as hard as another horse can kick!! So why be worried of injuring your horse??? It is more of a shock and a blow to their 'feelings' than painful.
By making a horse realize that attempting to injure you will NOT be tolerated in ANY circumstance you are insuring your AND everyone else's, around/near your horse/s, safety!!!
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The More we teach our horses the more we Learn from our horses.
Posts: 119 | From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Mar 2004
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gallop3337
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Member # 509
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posted May 10, 2004 09:46 AM
Yup, a good whack is what I do when my horses raises a hoof and threatens me. I know it doesn't hurt her, but the noise is enough to catch her off guard and make her think twice about following through with the kick. I have never been kicked, and I hope I never will be
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Speak your mind, but ride a fast horse.
Posts: 359 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Aug 2003
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sher327
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Member # 2418
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posted May 16, 2004 08:09 AM
I know this may sound like a dumb question but have to ask. Yesterday while tacking up our new horse with a different saddle I THINK was trying to cow kick at us although I've never seen it so I may have misread it. What exactly does it look like? To me, it looked like his left rear leg was coming up then swinging out to the side. I never saw him do that before and hubby thought he was swooshing flies,I don't.The second time he did it I gave a couple jerks on his lead and reprimanded him and he stopped. Then we readjusted the saddle and he never made that motion again.
Is that what he was trying to do and did I stop him correctly? Was he reascting to a new saddle fit ya think?
Do you still punish them for doing that even if they are telling you something is wrong or it hurts?
Posts: 40 | From: illinois | Registered: May 2004
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slc
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Member # 1713
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posted May 16, 2004 08:30 AM
i feel like when i kick a horse, i am telling him i am just another horse, and it is ok for him to check later and see if he is the bigger horse, because the herd is always changing like that with a new one trying to step up and take over the herd. if he is meek he may back down but if he is cheeky, kicking him in the belly is a challenge to be met, not discipline. like slapping a horse on the face for biting, that says, come on, lets you and me play or fight or whatever turns up!
you can tell it is not working, because it keeps happening. too, you let him kick 3 times, and he can't count, he just never learns not to kick, because sometimes it is ok and others it is not. a kid will always try to do something you don't want if sometimes you let him and sometimes you don't. a horse is like that too. you have to be consistent.
you can't expect him to learn not to if sometimes you let him do it. it has to be all the time or not at all.
when you go back at a horse like another horse would, i think you are telling him, ok, the game is on, next time, you try to be the bigger horse.
i like to tell the horse, no, i am not another horse, and don't you treat me like a horse. i am not.
if he kicks, i shank him and back him up. i want to get some weight on his hind legs so he can't kick, backing up helps with that. i can also put him in tight in a corner so when he does kick, he kicks the wall, which stings his foot a little, and most horses when tight in a corner behind, won't kick anyway.
if it is really bad, i whip him. i don't whip him on the legs, which makes him kick more, and again is what horses do (bite each others legs and kick with their legs) i whip him on the hind quarter. not twice, just once, just at the very second he does it and then stop. one big hard smack. i make it count.
why, because it stings without harming him like it would on the thin skin of the legs. i don't want to harm him i just want to make him see i don't want him doing that. then right away i pick up the foot again. if i have someone holding the hhorse they shank him and growl at him while i hang on for dear life to that foot and don't let it go no matter what, which is ok for me to do but i wouldn't recommend anyone else try it or they might be flying at a solid wall in a second or two.
if he goes to kick i growl at him and hang on to that foot, and with a kicker i pick the foot up much higher and bend the hock, stifle and hip far more, so it is harder for him to kick, as all the joints, hip, stifle and hock have to move together to kick, i pick the foot up like a farrier does so the horse really knows it is picked up and all his weight is shifted onto the other side, i can have someone hold the horse's tail at the same time, if it is really bad i have someone on the head with a twitch or a lip chain, someone on the tail, me on the foot and someone with a whip, 4 people, that is the last time the horse kicks, if that doesn't work i have number five holding up one forefoot hobbled or scotched, and we all prepare for it to go very western. god help us if it ever gets to all that, someone is most likely going to get hurt making that stop. most of the time shanking them and a bit of a growl is all you need, and then just pick the foot up higher in the future so he can't kick.
[ May 16, 2004, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: slc ]
Posts: 297 | From: ohio | Registered: Feb 2004
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Blistering Winds
Member
Member # 843
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posted May 16, 2004 03:57 PM
are you sure he's not kicking at flies?
Kicking up and out with another horse sounds more to me to be flies, and they are getting bad in my barn.
Don't punish a fly kick. ONly one that is aimed specifically for you.
Spray some fly spray on the legs and belly to ensure that this isn't the problem
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Horses should not be treated as people. They should be respected for who they are and what they are capable of doing!
Born Free Now Expensive
Posts: 4337 | From: Texas | Registered: Oct 2003
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MissBandit
Member
Member # 1377
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posted May 16, 2004 04:05 PM
If you allow a horse three chances to kick while being shod, then begin to reprimand him after the 4th kick - this horse will NEVER learn.
You have to be consistant will all forms of training, in hand or undersaddle. It's all the same.
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You know you are a horse person when...
...You pull change from your pocket , and hay falls out.
...you yell at the kids, and the horse's name pops out.
...you actually get to a point where flies don't bother you so much.
Posts: 2292 | From: BC, Canada | Registered: Jan 2004
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SyntheticTrust
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Member # 2281
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posted May 16, 2004 04:46 PM
When Blackie kicks me, I kick the **** outta her back and let her think she's going to die ... She hasn't kicked me in over 2 years ![[Woot!]](graemlins/woot.gif)
Posts: 238 | From: Carriere, Mississippi | Registered: Apr 2004
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