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Author
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Topic: Breeding Black to Grey...Makes Sorrel???
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shotgunpass
Member
Member # 2029
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posted April 14, 2004 06:39 AM
My stallion has got me stumped...a filly was born yesterday of Playboy's that is sorrel with 4 high socks, the mare is GREY, another was born on the 7th of this month that is a sorrel and its dam is a BAY. When bred to blue roan mares he produces blue roan, the same with palomino mares...we get a palomino foal. I thought Grey to be a dominant color. Any one have any thoughts on this. A pic. of the sorrel/4 socks is on my website under the Dry Playboy boot/button and then the very last pic. at the bottom. I have another grey mare I want to breed him to but I want a grey, not real sure what is going on? ANYONE???
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It's a nice place to be...in the presence of a horse.
http://www.shotgunpassranch.com
Posts: 107 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 14, 2004 06:55 AM
Those foals may gray out, are you sure they won't?
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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shotgunpass
Member
Member # 2029
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posted April 14, 2004 07:10 AM
Yeah, the newest one is as sorrel as sorrel can be, just a bad pic (color wise), she is the same color as the sorrel above her on his page. HMMMM <smile>
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It's a nice place to be...in the presence of a horse.
http://www.shotgunpassranch.com
Posts: 107 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 14, 2004 07:22 AM
Gray is dominant, but if the mare has a gray gene and a different color gene, then she could be throwing the other gene. Many grays throw chestnut/sorrel. With each foal, I am guessing it would be a 50/50 chance, but don't quote me on that, not too sure about the chance.
It all depends on which chromosomes get split up during oogenesis.
[ April 14, 2004, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: HorseCrazy1981 ]
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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shotgunpass
Member
Member # 2029
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posted April 14, 2004 07:29 AM
Just when a person thinks they have color side of things down as far as breeding, mother nature throws a twist...<smile>. I appreciate your input...back to the books I go on color and genetics. *Grin*
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It's a nice place to be...in the presence of a horse.
http://www.shotgunpassranch.com
Posts: 107 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 14, 2004 07:39 AM
I love color genetics. Dogs, horses and cats are my fave. So many genes, dilutions, I think it's awesome how something so simple can become so complicated, lol. My favorite thing about color is the agouti gene, it really messes up your mind. Also consider tissue specific coloring in dogs, that's a hard one to grasp. I use to think of color genetics as mixing two colors of paint, now I realize how wrong I was.
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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harli36
Member
Member # 1587
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posted April 14, 2004 10:17 AM
Gray is considered a dominant gene because it will obscure the visible effects of the other five sets of color genes. Therefore it doesn't mean if a parent is gray that their baby will be gray. The baby may never have gotten the gray gene. If a horse is homozygous gray their foals will have a 100% chance of being gray. 1981 was right about a heterozygous gray horse throwing a gray foal 50% of the time.
Ok so you breed your black stallion to...
Black (stallion) x Gray(mare) = sorrel.
-hard to tell what your stallions genes are with this cross but you do know that this mare must be heterozygous.-50% chance of getting a gray foal with this cross.
Black(stallion) x Bay(mare) = sorrel.
- Now this gives us some info on the stallion in order to produce a sorrel he must be heterozygous for the black gene and so must this mare. By the way there is only a 25% chance of this happening.
Black(stallion) x Blue Roan (mare) = blue roan.
-these foals get their coloring from Mom. Not much to do with your stallion. Because if he carried the roan gene he himself would be roan. 50% chance of this happening.
Black(stallion) x Palomino (mare) = palomino foal
-This is similar to the roan. The palomino gene came from Mom. If he carried the cream gene he himself would show color.
From the info you provided we can tell that your stallions genotype is..
gg Ee aa CC dd rnrn.
Sorry for being so long winded but I love this stuff. If I said anything confusing just ask. Thanks for keeping me occupied. LOL
Posts: 613 | From: northeastern Pa | Registered: Feb 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 14, 2004 10:29 AM
I don't think it was confusing at all, and very well explained. Someone mentioned their horse having the agouti gene, is that possible? I thought agouti was for 2 different colors on one hair, like squirrels being black when they should be brown, deer, opossums, coons, dogs, cats, etc. Never heard anyone say that about their horse before.
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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Carly
Member
Member # 2176
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posted April 14, 2004 10:47 AM
my Codys got the agouti gene...hes a brn/wht pinto (mini.lol) and where he has the brn...there is whit on the hair also! its like the tips of the hairs are white! its really cute! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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you gotta live, to love, and love to live.
Treat you like i treat my horse? YEAH RIGHT!!
I can muck 30 stalls b4 breakfast. what can YOU do?
I have a really big ass, but i married him anyways!
Driver carries no cash. all spent on horse
Treat me like a TB and ill never nag
who first squeezed cows utters, and decided to drink what coame out.
and who said "hey, you see that chicken over there? ill eat the next thing that comes out of its bu.tt"
"You don't think i got anything to teach you anymore? Thats fine with me. Just don't deny me the oppurtunity to watch you make an a.s.s of yourself"
-Sully (Skipp Suddith)Third Watch
"Sometimes i wonder what kind of world were leaving the kids. How the things we dont get involved in today, can come back. Maybe be their problem."
- Faith Yokus (Molly Price) Third Watch
Posts: 526 | From: Vancouver,BC,Canada | Registered: Apr 2004
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harli36
Member
Member # 1587
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posted April 14, 2004 10:54 AM
I'm really not sure if horses can have the agouti gene, but I don't think they can. I recieved a great article on QH coat color genetics, which is the same as any other horse of course but the article didn't talk about paint and appalosa genetics.
The article only mentioned 7 color genes(note I said 5 by mistake in my previous post)They were...
1. Gray or not gray
2. black or red
3. distribution of black
4. full-color or cream
5. dun or not dun
6. Roan or not roan
7. champagne dilution
It's number 7 that you might be talking about but I'm not sure the article doesn't show a pic of this gene at work. This is the description it gives, "In addition to cream and dun, a third dilution gene, popularly called the champagne dilution, occurs infrequently in QH's. Inherited as a dominant trait, the gene is characterizd by an iridescent, diluted hair color; mottled gray and pink skin; and light eye color."
It sounds like it could look agouti if the hair is also mottled. This gene sounds to me like its the one for the Alka-Teke's metalic sheen.
Once I get done with classes I want to research this stuff a little more. I would like to find out what gene is responsible for those brindle horses someone posted before.
On a side note I just heard this, since we are talking about genetics did you guys know that if you clone two spotted animals the color won't come out exactly the same. The spots will have the same basic pattern but they won't be the same. Also cats if cloned won't be born with the same color coat either.
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THE MORE PEOPLE I KNOW THE MORE I LOVE MY HORSE
Posts: 613 | From: northeastern Pa | Registered: Feb 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 14, 2004 11:04 AM
Yup, Cloned animals may not look or act the same way as the original animal. The genes might sort themselves out much differently.
--------------------
I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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harli36
Member
Member # 1587
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posted April 14, 2004 11:16 AM
Actually they don't think the genes are sorting seperatly. They think it has to do with factors the embryo is affected with in the womb. Such as how much blood flow each individual fetus is getting. Like cats for instance they know temperature (which would be affected by blood flow) affects their color. I don't know... just FYI.
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THE MORE PEOPLE I KNOW THE MORE I LOVE MY HORSE
Posts: 613 | From: northeastern Pa | Registered: Feb 2004
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shotgunpass
Member
Member # 2029
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posted April 14, 2004 02:04 PM
harli, you have alot of great info. What does gg Ee CC dd and I can't tell if its mm or rnrn all stand for. I have never been able to figure all that stuff out, not for lack of trying though. LOL! Thanx
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It's a nice place to be...in the presence of a horse.
http://www.shotgunpassranch.com
Posts: 107 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 14, 2004 04:38 PM
I just heard a story my Genetics teacher told me (its been a few years, so bear with me) about someone trying to clone a Calico male (super rare), that it didn't come out looking or acting anything like the deceased cat. But then, Calico is a very difficult color anyway. He was telling us (I think) about how differently the genes got expressed.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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Carly
Member
Member # 2176
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posted April 14, 2004 05:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by HorseCrazy1981:
I just heard a story my Genetics teacher told me (its been a few years, so bear with me) about someone trying to clone a Calico male (super rare), that it didn't come out looking or acting anything like the deceased cat. But then, Calico is a very difficult color anyway. He was telling us (I think) about how differently the genes got expressed.
yea i heard that somewhere...hmmm
anyway we have 2 calico males...
they are pretty rare! you know what else are rare in cats? orange females!
only had 4 as kittens around here...they are usually always males!!!
--------------------
you gotta live, to love, and love to live.
Treat you like i treat my horse? YEAH RIGHT!!
I can muck 30 stalls b4 breakfast. what can YOU do?
I have a really big ass, but i married him anyways!
Driver carries no cash. all spent on horse
Treat me like a TB and ill never nag
who first squeezed cows utters, and decided to drink what coame out.
and who said "hey, you see that chicken over there? ill eat the next thing that comes out of its bu.tt"
"You don't think i got anything to teach you anymore? Thats fine with me. Just don't deny me the oppurtunity to watch you make an a.s.s of yourself"
-Sully (Skipp Suddith)Third Watch
"Sometimes i wonder what kind of world were leaving the kids. How the things we dont get involved in today, can come back. Maybe be their problem."
- Faith Yokus (Molly Price) Third Watch
Posts: 526 | From: Vancouver,BC,Canada | Registered: Apr 2004
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harli36
Member
Member # 1587
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posted April 14, 2004 05:44 PM
Ok each gene has two forms that are called alleles. If both alleles code for the same thing than the horse is said to be homozygous for that gene. If the alleles for one gene code for two different things that horse is said to be heterozygous. Each allele is given a code thus the letters you were asking me about before. And a capital letter designated to an allele usually means that, that allele will mask the affects of the lower case allele.
There are 7 different genes for coat color in horses( That I’m familiar with at least)
1. Gray or not gray
2. black or red
3. distribution of black
4. full-color or cream
5. dun or not dun
6. Roan or not roan
7. champagne dilution
1. Gray or not gray
This genes alleles were given the symbols ‘G’ or ‘g’. A ‘G’ will not only mask out ‘g’ but it will also mask out other genes. So a horse with the makeup of ‘Gg’ or ‘GG’ (remember two letters because there is two alleles per gene) will be gray and a horse with ‘gg’ will not be gray.
2 Black or Red gene.
This genes alleles are given the symbols ‘E’ and ‘e’. The ‘E’ allele will code for black hair. While the ‘e’ allele will code for black skin pigment but not black hair. Since ‘E’ masks out the effects of ‘e’ a horse with the code “EE’ or ‘Ee’ will have black hair. A horse will a code of ‘ee’ will have black skin pigment but no black hair.
3. Distribution of Black.
This genes alleles were given the symbols of “A’ and ‘a’ and needs and “EE’ or ‘Ee’ gene to work. The ‘A’ allele will confine the black hair to the horses points as in a bay horse. The ‘a’ allele will not confine the black hair at all. Therefore a horse with a code of ‘Aa’ or ‘AA’ will have black hair at the points and a horse of ‘aa’ will be black all over.
4. Full Color or Cream
This is a dilution gene and was given the letters of ‘C’ and ‘Ccr’(the cr is usually seen as a superscript) A horse with ‘C Ccr’ will have it’s color diluted so a sorrel horse would be diluted to a palomino for example. A horse that has the code ‘Ccr, Ccr’ will be a creamello because it’s color was completely diluted. Since a horse will give one of it’s alleles to it’s children a creamello will always sire a diluted color. What you want if breeding for color. A horse that has ‘CC’ will show no dilution.
5. Dun or not dun
Also a dilution gene but this gene does not affect the color at the horses points. A “D” allele will cause dilution while a ‘d’ allele will not. Therefore a horse that has the code, ‘DD’ or ‘Dd’ will be diluted but they will still have black points. A ‘dd’ horse won’t be diluted.
6. Roan or not roan
This gene was given the symbol of ‘ RN’ and ‘rn’. ‘RN’ will cause a horse to be roan. Therefore a horse with a makeup of ‘RN, r n’ will be roan and a horse with ‘r n, r n’ won’t be roan. They are beginning to think that ‘RN, RN’ is a lethal combination of genes.
Let me know if this helps or if you have any other questions. I typed alot so there might be some discrepancies.
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THE MORE PEOPLE I KNOW THE MORE I LOVE MY HORSE
Posts: 613 | From: northeastern Pa | Registered: Feb 2004
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harli36
Member
Member # 1587
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posted April 14, 2004 05:56 PM
"I just heard a story my Genetics teacher told me (its been a few years, so bear with me) about someone trying to clone a Calico male (super rare), that it didn't come out looking or acting anything like the deceased cat."-1981
Well they know for a fact that a clone won't act like it's parent. A lot of personality comes from experience. THe cat didn't look like it's "parent" because cat coat color(even more so than other animals) is not only determined by genes but also enviornmental factors. For instance there was an experiment done on siamese cats where they shaved all the fur off the cat and kept the feet warm and the main part of the body cold. When the cat grew it's hair back in the cat had black hair on it's main part of the body and light colored hair on it's paws. Proving that cat coat color is determined not only by genetics but also by temperature/blood flow.
The genes can't get expressed differently in a clone because they are the same as the parent. And this can be proved by doing some fairly simple tests. The problems that Dolly had (she got arthritis at a very young age) were things that went wrong when they jumpstarted the egg to divid. THerefore the clone won't be an exact copy of the parent but will contain the same genes.
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THE MORE PEOPLE I KNOW THE MORE I LOVE MY HORSE
Posts: 613 | From: northeastern Pa | Registered: Feb 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 14, 2004 06:59 PM
Hmm.. I never thought about that orange female thing, makes me think. Thanks, now I am gonna have to do research on that, lol. Calico males (XXY), isn't that called "super-female"? Need to brush up on my terms...
[ April 15, 2004, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: HorseCrazy1981 ]
--------------------
I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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shotgunpass
Member
Member # 2029
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posted April 15, 2004 05:41 AM
Hey All, Really some good info. you put out here. I have tried reading this stuff in books, but when I think I have it sorta figured out, life throws me a curve ball...<smile> It seems in every case here my stallions genes are letting the mares genes be more dominant? Do you think it would be right in assuming that? He was bred to a pinto mare and out came a pinto filly. What I really have a hard time with is that the bay mare who had the sorrel colt...the mares sire was a black also. Hmmm...you all have given me ALOT to try to figure out. I sooo appreciate the help!!!!! Thanx for taking the time and sharing your knowledge. <smile>
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It's a nice place to be...in the presence of a horse.
http://www.shotgunpassranch.com
Posts: 107 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 15, 2004 05:54 AM
Animals will usually only express one color gene (correct me if I'm wrong). I am not even going to pretend to know anything about brindling, that is just genetics going haywire. Anyway, gray stallions have sired black foals. Why, because they have a hidden allele that isn't getting expressed. We went into equine color genetics a little in my class because it was just easier to identify the dominant color gene. I read somewhere that there are 11 processes that determine horse color. I will have to dog up that article. Anyway, Both the stallion and the mare can be one color, but the foal can be a completely different color because each parent has 2 colors it can contribute. I hope I wasn't to confusing.
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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ty_bear44
Junior Member
Member # 1523
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posted April 19, 2004 01:50 PM
We can never be sure what colour our foals will turn out to be! If you think that's weird, my friend had her grey mare bred to a liver chestnut stallion. We figured it would be a dark colour...it turned out to be palomino!
Posts: 20 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2004
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harli36
Member
Member # 1587
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posted April 19, 2004 02:02 PM
I've got to disagree with you there. They do know what genes cause what colors. It is impossible to get a true palomino from a true liver chestnut crossed to a true gray mare. If you would like to learn more about the genetics of color than check out this site. A lot of people that don't know the genetics will say, You never know what you can get.
web pageCoat Color Genetics
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THE MORE PEOPLE I KNOW THE MORE I LOVE MY HORSE
Posts: 613 | From: northeastern Pa | Registered: Feb 2004
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Shimmer62
Member
Member # 2299
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posted April 21, 2004 03:36 PM
I am very curious when it comes to all this stuff.My mare is due to foal in a few weeks and I have been wondering on the colour. My mare is bay her dad was sorrel. The stud I bred her to is an odd colour he looks like a redish buckskin but he is roaned out and he has a dun strip but he is not a dun. Any way the owner tells me they have only had 2 solid colored babies out of the hundreds they have had. He has thrown everything from black, palomino, grulia, buckskin, all sorts of duns and roans. I dont know if you can haelp but maybe you could take an educated guess at it. wheeew thats alot. ![[Help!]](graemlins/help.gif)
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I LOVE MY OTOE MASTER MAMA & BABY
Posts: 244 | From: Porterville California | Registered: Apr 2004
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shotgunpass
Member
Member # 2029
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posted April 21, 2004 06:47 PM
Shimmer, you need HorseCrazy or harli on here, they gave me some pretty good info. Lets hope they take a look. <smile>
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It's a nice place to be...in the presence of a horse.
http://www.shotgunpassranch.com
Posts: 107 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2004
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harli36
Member
Member # 1587
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posted April 21, 2004 07:12 PM
Sorry Shimmer right now your going to have to deal with me. I really pitty you. LOL
Well I'm going to assume that the stud you breed to was a Red Dun Roan because they can come in a reddish shade. They can look almost as red a light colored chestnut with dark points and stripe. If you really don't think he is a dun though just tell me what you think he is.
Cross him with a bay and you could get a lot of things. You would have a good chance of getting a bay from the cross, a 25% chance of getting a chestnut/sorrel, a 75% chance of getting a Dun and a 50% chance that whatever color the foal turns out that it roan out. (the percentages don't add up to 100% I know but that is because we are dealing with different genes I'm sure I could bring it down to 100% for ya but I have no clue how to do that math) I'm sorry it's not much help this is a hard cross to determine. Basically I can tell you that you will not get a palomino, buckskin, cremello, gray or black. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR FOAL!
Posts: 613 | From: northeastern Pa | Registered: Feb 2004
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