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Author
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Topic: I have a question.....
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cowgirl247
Member
Member # 2127
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posted April 04, 2004 04:02 PM
ok so while looking through some cabinets at my house for something i needed for school, i came across my horse's "family tree" and next to just about all the horses' names is a number and some of them also have letters after them, and others just have the numbers. For example, one of them says:
Pocahontas 55
or then there's: Nasrullah 40 {B}
i would like to know what the numbers and letters mean. There are also the letters C, S, and I on the chart next to names as well....
something else interesting: i already knew this but Coco (my mare) is the great-granddaughter of Nasrullah (triple-crown winner, i believe), the great-great-granddaughter of War Admiral (another triple-crown winner) and great-great-great-granddaughter of Man o' War (a third triple-crown winner)!!
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Save a horse, ride a cowboy!!
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return..."-"Moulin Rouge"
"We ride and never worry about the fall. I guess that's just the cowboy in us all"-Tim McGraw
"So don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied. Choose to chance the rapids and dare to dance the tides"-Garth Brooks
Due to recent budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
Posts: 192 | From: Southern California | Registered: Apr 2004
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Blistering Winds
Member
Member # 843
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posted April 05, 2004 04:10 PM
If it is before the registration number, then it is probably part of their name. Some big farms will name the foals out of one particular stallion, yadida 1, 2, 3, 4...and so on. But it may not be that way either.
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Horses should not be treated as people. They should be respected for who they are and what they are capable of doing!
Born Free Now Expensive
Posts: 4337 | From: Texas | Registered: Oct 2003
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Sandra-A1
Member
Member # 588
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posted April 05, 2004 04:18 PM
![[Confused]](confused.gif) It could be their color...B for bay, C for chestnut, S for sorrel, G for grey....can you type out a could like it is so we can see?
That might help! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-Dumbledore
Posts: 1863 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
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cowgirl247
Member
Member # 2127
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posted April 06, 2004 08:20 PM
Sandra-A1, when you said "could" i assumed you meant "code" so here's one for ya:
War Admiral 34 {C}
now i KNOW War Admiral was NOT chestnut colored (well i only know that if "Seabiscuit" was correct in their portrayal of War Admiral because he was black in the movie!!) another one my mare has in her lineage is:
Man o' War 17 {S}
and i don't think Man o' War was sorrel but i could be wrong about that.....
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Save a horse, ride a cowboy!!
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return..."-"Moulin Rouge"
"We ride and never worry about the fall. I guess that's just the cowboy in us all"-Tim McGraw
"So don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied. Choose to chance the rapids and dare to dance the tides"-Garth Brooks
Due to recent budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
Posts: 192 | From: Southern California | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sandra-A1
Member
Member # 588
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posted April 06, 2004 08:55 PM
Your right it is not their color!
War Admiral was: br...brown, 15.2 Thoroughbred foaled in 1934.
Man O War was: ch...chestnut 16.2 Thoroughbred foaled in 1917
I can't find out what those letters and numbers mean. I guess I would look for a TB forum and ask someone there. If you can find a racing one even better! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good luck I hope you can find out!
Sorry I could not be of any help! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-Dumbledore
Posts: 1863 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
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Grandsgirl2003
Member
Member # 1679
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posted April 06, 2004 09:19 PM
try e-mailing a reg. place. tlike the jocky club or somthing! V:)))))
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"You're not an ugly person,Your a pretty monkey!"- Grey Gilbride
"Friends are like Pringles chips, you eat one and cont stop having more!!"-Colleen Gilbride ;)
Posts: 1122 | Registered: Feb 2004
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OwnerofWillow
Member
Member # 2012
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posted April 06, 2004 10:05 PM
I have always wondered that as well...
Willow has Man o' War in her tree too!
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Two Tru Willow (pending)
If you don't know how to spell a word use this link Spellcheck
Posts: 809 | From: AZ | Registered: Mar 2004
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cowgirl247
Member
Member # 2127
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posted April 07, 2004 07:56 AM
wow, War Admiral was only 15.2?!?! all i know about War Admiral is what they said in "Seabiscuit" about him and i thought they said he was, like, 18 hh!!!
Coco's 15.3 hh so i guess its true, good things DO come in small packages! LOL!
--------------------
Save a horse, ride a cowboy!!
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return..."-"Moulin Rouge"
"We ride and never worry about the fall. I guess that's just the cowboy in us all"-Tim McGraw
"So don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied. Choose to chance the rapids and dare to dance the tides"-Garth Brooks
Due to recent budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
Posts: 192 | From: Southern California | Registered: Apr 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 07, 2004 08:01 AM
Try pedigreequery.com. I love that site, they have pics and everything.
My gelding has Man O War as well.
[ April 07, 2004, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: HorseCrazy1981 ]
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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cowgirl247
Member
Member # 2127
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posted April 07, 2004 08:04 AM
well i've just sent an email off to the Jockey Club with my questions......i'll let everyone know what they've said when/if i get a response back!
i'll try pedigreequery.com next!
--------------------
Save a horse, ride a cowboy!!
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return..."-"Moulin Rouge"
"We ride and never worry about the fall. I guess that's just the cowboy in us all"-Tim McGraw
"So don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied. Choose to chance the rapids and dare to dance the tides"-Garth Brooks
Due to recent budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
Posts: 192 | From: Southern California | Registered: Apr 2004
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cowgirl247
Member
Member # 2127
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posted April 07, 2004 08:53 AM
OwnerofWillow and HorseCrazy1981 - guess that means our horses are distantly related then! Cool!
--------------------
Save a horse, ride a cowboy!!
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return..."-"Moulin Rouge"
"We ride and never worry about the fall. I guess that's just the cowboy in us all"-Tim McGraw
"So don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied. Choose to chance the rapids and dare to dance the tides"-Garth Brooks
Due to recent budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
Posts: 192 | From: Southern California | Registered: Apr 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 07, 2004 09:06 AM
Quite distantly in my case. Think it's 8 generations back on my boy. My babies bloodlines make me want to find a racetrack so bad just to time him on. Oh well.
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 07, 2004 09:07 AM
Quite distantly in my case. Think it's 8 generations back on my boy. My babies bloodlines make me want to find a racetrack so bad just to time him on. Oh well.
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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cowgirl247
Member
Member # 2127
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posted April 07, 2004 09:10 AM
Coco's, like, 5 or 6 generations back from Man o' War i think.......if i've got it right! i am at school and her pedigree is sitting on my dresser in my room at home!
--------------------
Save a horse, ride a cowboy!!
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return..."-"Moulin Rouge"
"We ride and never worry about the fall. I guess that's just the cowboy in us all"-Tim McGraw
"So don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied. Choose to chance the rapids and dare to dance the tides"-Garth Brooks
Due to recent budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
Posts: 192 | From: Southern California | Registered: Apr 2004
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cowgirl247
Member
Member # 2127
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posted April 07, 2004 09:12 AM
sorry this is so long but this is the answer i got from The Jockey Club. Maybe this will help answer all of our questions:
Thank you for your email.
The letters in front of the stallion names are part of the Dosage System.
In brief Dosage is a mathematical formula used to determine if a Thoroughbred may inherit speed or stamina from the sires in its pedigree. Only 188 select and qualified sires are used to determine dosage which list five categories ranging from speed to stamina. Those categories would be Brilliant-Intermediate-Classic-Solid- Professional. For more information on dosage, you may check our reference section. Log onto your account and go to reference under the menu section of your account. Here you will find articles on dosage, track codes and other information including our online glossary.
A copy of our on-line article on Dosage appears below:
A Brief Review Of Dosage: A Practical Approach
by Steven A. Roman, Ph.D.
Dosage, a technique for classifying Thoroughbred pedigrees by type based on aptitudinal characteristics inherited from selected sires, originated in the early part of this century from the research of the Frenchman Lt. Col. J. J. Vuillier. In his classic study of the extended pedigrees of the best runners in England and France, Vuillier (in LES CROISEMENTS RATIONNELS DANS LA RACE PURE) observed that very few stallions appeared with any great frequency. He called these stallions "chefs-de-race". He also noted that the degree of inheritance attributed to each of these "chefs" was essentially constant in all pedigrees, the absolute value (or Dosage figure) varying from sire to sire. Furthermore, he demonstrated that in successive 15 to 20 year time frames, new series of "chefs" emerged which eventually established their own fixed degree of influence. This process, in which new series of "chefs" periodically become dominant, provides a rational model for the evolution of the Thoroughbred race horse. Vuillier believed that the objective in breeding should be to attain Dosage figures in the foal as close as possible to the established Dosage figures for the breed. For some time, he practiced his theories successfully in the employ of H. H. The Aga Khan, breeder of such notables as Bahram, Majideh, Mahmoud and Nasrullah, among many others.
Some years later, the Italian Dr. Franco Varola (in TYPOLOGY OF THE RACE HORSE) developed a modified version of dosage that retained the principle that Thoroughbred evolution proceeds through the influence of a very small number of the stallions at stud in any era. Varola did, however, shift the emphasis from quantity (i.e., the degree of inheritance associated with individual sires) to quality (i.e., the pattern of aptitudinal traits inherited from key ancestors). Discounting the generation in which his expanded list of "chefs" appeared, he arrived at a distribution of aptitudinal traits in a given pedigree that described the "type" of the horse being analyzed. A significant point made by Varola was that the characteristics transmitted by his "chefs" were not necessarily those they possessed as runners. The focus, instead, was entirely on the qualities passed on as breeding animals. Thus, in contrast to conventional pedigree analysis based on a historical perspective of ancestral performance, Dosage relies on the dynamics of inheritance. As an alternative and complementary method of pedigree interpretation, it may help avoid potential problems associated with the traditional concept of "breeding the best to the best".
Our approach, which first appeared publicly as a series of articles in Leon Rasmussen's Bloodlines column in Daily Racing Form just prior to the 1981 Kentucky Derby, has been to fuse the basic ideas of Vuillier and Varola, incorporating both quantitative and qualitative components in the hope of providing additional insights. In order to establish greater utility, we chose to use more accessible four-generation pedigrees instead of the extended pedigrees used previously. We also introduced an approximation of a genetic effect by halving the influence of any "chef" in each successive earlier generation. Finally, we established a statistical method for evaluating the results of our analysis. In this framework, Dosage in its latest configuration was developed.
"Chefs", chosen on the basis of their observable prepotence for type, are assigned to one or two of five aptitudinal groups (Brilliant, Intermediate, Classic, Solid, and Professional) covering the spectrum (from left to right) of speed to endurance. The assignments are made to best reflect the traits that these stallions predictably and consistently transmit to their offspring. For bookkeeping purposes we assign a total potential value of 16 points to each generation. Since there are, progressively, one, two, four, and eight sires in the first four generations, "chefs" that appear among these sires will contribute 16, 8, 4, and 2 points to each as we work back. The points for all "chefs" present are then tallied in the appropriate aptitude columns. "Chefs" that confer two aptitudinal characteristics have their points split between the two aptitudes. In the end, the total points in each column produce the Dosage Profile (DP), a series of five numbers that reflects the relative proportions of each of the five aptitudes and is expressed in the order:
Brilliant-Intermediate-Classic-Solid-Professional
For example, the DP for Sea Hero (Polish Navy-Glowing Tribute, by Graustark) is 3 - 5 - 22 - 4 - 2.
The ratio of points in the speed wing (Brilliant points + Intermediate points + one-half the Classic points) to points in the stamina wing (one-half the Classic points + Solid points + Professional points) is the Dosage Index (DI). This number is directly proportional to the inherited prepotent speed in a pedigree and inversely proportional to the stamina. A DI of 1.00 indicates a perfect balance of the two. The DI of Sea Hero is 1.12 ((3 + 5 + 11) divided by (11 + 4 + 2)).
If we consider the five aptitude groups as points spaced equally along a linear scale where Brilliant is assigned a value of +2.00, Intermediate is +1.00, Classic is 0.00, Solid is -1.00, and Professional is -2.00, the DP allows for the calculation of the Center of Distribution (CD), that point along the scale corresponding to the total combined influences of all "chefs" in the pedigree. In that sense, it is a balance point (analogous to a center of gravity) of all weighted aptitudes supplied by "chefs" in the four generations. Calculation of the CD is done by taking the sum of twice the Brilliant points plus Intermediate points minus Solid points minus twice the Professional points and dividing that number by the total points in the DP. An exact balance of speed and stamina yields a CD of 0.00. The CD for Sea Hero is 0.08 (((2 x 3) + 5 - 4 -(2 x 2)) divided by (3 + 5 + 22 + 4 + 2)), which places the combined effect of all "chefs" in his four generation pedigree between the Classic and Intermediate aptitudes, although closer to the Classic.
Research using the described methodology as a tool for pedigree classification has resulted in a number of revealing observations including the following:
There is a direct correlation between the DI or CD and performance at varying distances as determined from separate populations of stakes winning sprinters, middle distance runners, and routers. As expected, the sprinters have the highest values (reflecting the importance of speed in short races), the routers have the lowest (confirming the need for endurance in long races), and the middle distance runners fall in between.
Superior Thoroughbreds as a group (e.g., champions, classic winners, leading sires) have significantly lower DI's and CD's than the general population of stakes winners, suggesting that outstanding performance on the track or at stud benefits from a large component of inherited stamina. There is no evidence of an inherent quality associated with lower Dosage figures. Rather, the lower Dosage figures reflect the fact that our most prestigious races are run at longer distances and that successful competitors are aptitudinally suited to those races.
Only one winner of the Kentucky Derby since 1940 (Strike the Gold), and only three winners of the Belmont Stakes over the same time frame (Damascus, Conquistador Cielo, Creme Fraiche) have had a DI above 4.00. This is in direct contrast to stakes winners in general, of which about one-quarter to one-third have a DI greater than 4.00 and for which the average DI is slightly above 4.00. The combination of Dosage and our discovery that all but four of the winners of the Kentucky Derby since 1972 were ranked as a juvenile within 10 pounds of the highweight on the Experimental Free Handicap or were named juvenile champion in another country has become an especially powerful tool in isolating the true classic contenders. The implications of this result suggest that a pedigree suited to distance, along with a demonstration of high-class, early maturity is more important for classic performance than other factors such as form in the pre-Derby preps at distances less than ten furlongs.
The average DI of juvenile stakes winners steadily decreases throughout the season, indicating a larger speed component in the pedigrees of winners early in the year relative to winners later on. This phenomenon parallels the need for greater stamina as the distances of races for two-year-olds increase through the year.
The DI of every steeplechase champion since 1972 has been either below 1.50 (consistent with the long distances associated with steeplechase racing) or above 4.88. This result suggests that the pace of these races is well within the ability of speed bred runners and that their quickness over the jumps can be an important factor for success. Surprisingly, there are no steeplechase champions over this time frame with a DI in the range of middle distance flat racers.
The average DI of stakes winners at tracks favoring speed is higher than the average DI of stakes winners at tracks where speed is less favored. This result is consistent with the observation that brilliantly bred runners often carry their speed further on the speed oriented surface.
Turf stakes winners have, on average, a lower DI than stakes winners on dirt. Furthermore, the turf runners have a significantly greater representation of Solid and Professional "chefs" in their pedigree. This result is consistent with the observation that turf races are run at a longer average distance than are races on dirt.
There is an "inflation" factor in the DI and CD over time that parallels the dramatically increasing influence of Brilliant and Intermediate "chefs" during the last 50 years, primarily through Phalaris. Accordingly, the DI's and CD's for successive generations of Thoroughbreds are rising, although the relative importance of stamina in top class performers compared to the entire population has remained constant.
The studies discussed here are based on large populations that reflect statistically significant trends within the total gene pool; therefore, when applying the methodology to individual horses, we must consider the probability that the individual will perform according to expectations. A higher degree of accuracy, as well as an associated predictability, will depend in large part on a continual modification and refinement of the chef-de-race list, guided by the principle of a better description of reality.
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Save a horse, ride a cowboy!!
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return..."-"Moulin Rouge"
"We ride and never worry about the fall. I guess that's just the cowboy in us all"-Tim McGraw
"So don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied. Choose to chance the rapids and dare to dance the tides"-Garth Brooks
Due to recent budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
Posts: 192 | From: Southern California | Registered: Apr 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 07, 2004 09:17 AM
I didn't read all of that, but it seems pretty complex.
--------------------
I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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OwnerofWillow
Member
Member # 2012
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posted April 07, 2004 11:31 AM
Ya that does sound very confusing but I think its cool that they have a system to see if they can run well.
Man o' War is 8 and 9 generations back on Willow
She also has Equipose 8 generations back (a horse that is in one of the Guys and Dolls songs) I know it means nothing to the horse she is today (because it is so far back) But it is still fun to know that my horse is related to a legand!
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Two Tru Willow (pending)
If you don't know how to spell a word use this link Spellcheck
Posts: 809 | From: AZ | Registered: Mar 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 07, 2004 12:11 PM
What was strange to learn was that my boys pedigree is full of racehorses, and apparently he was never on a track. Probably because he is smaller than the average racehorse. But he is still the fastest horse I have ever ridden.
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I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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cowgirl247
Member
Member # 2127
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posted April 07, 2004 03:41 PM
yeah i couldn't make heads or tails of most of that stuff either but at least it explained (kind of) what the letters and numbers mean!
Coco was raced from '88-'90 as a 2-to-4-year-old but never did very well and was "retired" after that. I can still see the "race horse" in her when i turn her out in the back arena though! she'll get going at a good lope and then on the long stretches, she'll dig down and go even faster at a gallop....if its been a REALLY long time between turn-outs or if she just really wants to have a good time, she'll run around the whole arena and scream and buck!
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Save a horse, ride a cowboy!!
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return..."-"Moulin Rouge"
"We ride and never worry about the fall. I guess that's just the cowboy in us all"-Tim McGraw
"So don't you sit upon the shoreline and say you're satisfied. Choose to chance the rapids and dare to dance the tides"-Garth Brooks
Due to recent budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
Posts: 192 | From: Southern California | Registered: Apr 2004
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HorseCrazy1981
Member
Member # 1771
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posted April 07, 2004 05:29 PM
I saw the racehorse come out in my gelding once. We were out in the back pasture and had been jumping around on the trails, and I figured he was pretty pooped, so I decided to take him back up to untack him and head home. Well, we got to the middle pasture and a few of my friends had gathered (about 15 of them) and had decided to see who could make it across the pasture first. I said "No, I think were pooped" So I started to walk away in the opposite direction. When my gelding heard those horses take off, he spun around and took off after them. We ended up coming from behind to beat them all. He was digging in so deep I felt I could almost touch the ground with my boots. It was all over in about 15 seconds, but I have never seen him run so fast nor have I seen him run that hard since. I could barely get him out of the pasture after that, he was trying so hard to stay back with them, prancing, rearing, so hyper. He looked at me while I was untacking him like he was telling me Thanks.
--------------------
I love my babies!!
Beauty--Heinz 57 mare
Prince--TB gelding
Black--Arab/TW mare
Buffy--Belgian mare
Angel--Arabian mare
Desiree--Arabian mare
Eventually I have to get up off my lazy butt and do something.
Posts: 908 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sandra-A1
Member
Member # 588
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posted April 07, 2004 05:38 PM
Thank you cowgirl247 for sharing that information!
That was really interesting!
Now if I ever decide to get into breeding TB race horses I will have useful information that will help me select a suitable stallion for winning speed!
LOL!
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"It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-Dumbledore
Posts: 1863 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
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